Here's The Deal, Anarchist Comrades
I've clearly upset some of my anarchist buddies with my posts on the "Urewera 17"
I get continual comments on this blog protesting the "17"s innocence and reminding me that none of them have yet been convicted of any offence.
Fair enough.
Here's the deal.
Give me a convincing explanation of what these people were doing in the Ureweras with camo gear and (allegedly) a wide array of weaponry and I will stop posting on the subject.
I will post any convincing explanation.
Could I be any fairer?
I get continual comments on this blog protesting the "17"s innocence and reminding me that none of them have yet been convicted of any offence.
Fair enough.
Here's the deal.
Give me a convincing explanation of what these people were doing in the Ureweras with camo gear and (allegedly) a wide array of weaponry and I will stop posting on the subject.
I will post any convincing explanation.
Could I be any fairer?
posted by Trevor Loudon at
1/14/2008 07:15:00 AM
65 Comments:
Going on about people wearing camo gear seems slightly odd when you consider how many people where it, ie hunters, paintball teams, heaps of people everyday (look at the jackets and shorts from the warehouse of halensteins.
You can get old army clothes from any oppshop or military surplus shop, like the ones in Christchurch, Wellington or Auckland. So that isn't a big deal.
Kyle Chapman's surivalist mates do 'bush training' in New Zealand parks.
No terrorist charges were laid as you know, presumably along with the faulty legislation - that the government admitted was never desired for domestic use but for international organisations on threat lists.
If you went to any of the court cases last year you would know a lot of the police evidence was faulty. Paul Buchanan said a real terrorist threat would of been dealt with by the SAS not New Zealand Police.
18 months of heavy police and SIS survellience is enough to surely prove any credible accusation beyond doubt. You have read the illegally leaked police 'evidence' that had selected passages on it.
No terrorist activity happened, usaing guns without a license is not a terrorist activity clearly, otherwise New Zealand's farmers are in deep trouble. Tuhoe people have a hunting culture, like a lot of rural people guns aren't always licensed.
Tama Iti is too well known to lead a clandestine organisation. Yes some were anarchists, some activists of different kinds - there is not a history of political violence in New Zealand in modern history bar the rainbow warrior terrorist bombing, which was done by a State secret service, not a political group or movement.
In short there was no terrorist bombings, no credible threat - certainly not in the short term. As there were no charges laid it is unfair and uncorrect to call them terrorists. It is like accusing someone of cheating, not being able to prove it and still calling them a cheat.
So calling groups eco terrorists when no bombing or political violence has occured is misleading and incorrect. Where someone to accuse a buisness of something like that and not prove it they could be done for slander, same with someone doing that to a person.
300 police, the SIS and all the available resources failed to prove evidence of the accusations, therefore they have fallen back on arms charges. An arms charge is different to being charged for terrorist activity, there are no New Zealand groups that are designated terrorist organisations.
Well said Anon.
Gangs per se would have one of the largest collection of illegal weaponry in NZ today. Many of the weapons having been stolen from the police over the years. If the label of terrorist is to be used then look no further than the gangs.
My wifes nephew is employed by CYP's to run back country camps for many of this countries youthfull malcontents where they recieve survival training, wear odd assortments of clothes and are taught to be more self reliant and confident. If they behave themselves while isolated in the wilderness they may even be given fire arms training in the context of gathering food. All state funded initives I might add.
As for evidence of crimes being committed, I remember well police planting evidence which was used to send Arthur Allan Thomas to prison for many a long year.
Dirk.
I see, Trev, so people have to prove their innocence. Is this the kind of justice we can look forward to in the unlikely event that the Act Party gets into power?
It seems clear to me, Trevor, from reading anonymous's post...it was the weekly training for the "Tuhoe paintball team"!
These apologists for the Tuhoe Terrorists are pathetic.
They are as bad as Hillary Clinton and her denials of various "Bimbo Alerts" about her husband.
I enjoy your weblog, Trevor, keep it up!
Thanks elijah-I pop into yours from time to time. Hope you're making lots of dosh. I was born in balclutha-not too far from your home town.
Amazing isn't it. I ask a simple question-what were these people doing up in the bush with weaponry-all I get is evasive drivel.
Clearly these guys want to keep on posting.
Again
An arms charge is different to being charged for terrorist activity, there are no New Zealand groups that are designated terrorist organisations.
Its quite clear all you can do is resort to slander as you know that the police overreacted and didn't have anything more than charges relating to people having weapons without licenses.
Not something worthy of the response it got or international alarm.
Can you not read anon.
I said nothing about terrorism or terrorism charges.
All i want to know is what those people were doing in the bush with weapons.
Were they pig hunting, training security guards or doing Maori War re-enactments.
These people are clearly harmless so there is surely a harmless explanation for their activities.
I'm waiting-but not holding my breath....
"All I want to know is what these people were doing in the bush with weapons" ?????????? The "bush" for Christ's Sake ? "Weapons" in the "bush". Lordy Lordy Lordy !
I've once or twice flirted with the notion that you're an intelligent man Trevor, but really, don't you see that your very comment can mean only this....."PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE !"
"Until which time I shall righteously lambast you as terrorists !"
Come on Trevor.....it's exceedingly disingenuous.....on a scale previously exceeded only by Hooton The Mad Spin Cow of the National Party, to say that you've never called these "folk" terrorists.
You really do indulge yourself my friend. Don't expect me to do that for you.....a two percenter bullshitter is a two percenter bullshitter is a two percenter bullshitter.
Don't fancy yourself the "class" of a Karl Rove, Bun Man !
And at the end of the day - all we have is an Arms Act Trial. As I correctly predicted from day one, while you jerkers were running for your bunkers.....
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is far more dangerous a "Bush" than the one we know and love !
Since when have peacenik Greenies loved camouflage gear, unless it's to do with getting unseen to and from clandestine marijuana crops!
Val Morse has stripped for at least one demo. Maybe from now on she can just appear in cammou, and keep it on.
So long as she doesn't mind getting a big fraternal hug from Kyle Chapman's camou crazies.
"The Melon-Green party is trying to get these nutters off scot free because the Melon-Greens are in this anti-democratic stuff up to their elbows since they were subverted by the radical left."
Never a truer word....
What pray tell is more anti-democratic and anti-due process than the cant we see on this blog ?
The moment Democracy Bitch and Ordered Justice deliver up something a bunch of snotty schoolboy right wingers don't feel happy about, there's hell to pay !
But until then we sloganeer in the name of both. And and as it suits, hypocritically embrace both.
And I see that you gargantuans are still reliant on the "PROVE YOUR INNOCENCE" approach.
My point is underlined by the stunning forensic approach of Anonymous above - "(but).....they weren't ordinary people in the bush."
So the burden of proof has shifted has it ? If you have half an idea what I'm talking about.....
We've still only got an Arms Act Trial - as predicted.
The Greens are now trying to paint their Urewera nutty friends as just sports people.
If you saw the TVNZ pics of the peaceful Urewera folk showing their prowess with firearms a day or two after the arrests you would know different.
Kids too young to have firearms licences firing shotguns without even aiming properly, other people
demonstrating complete absence of firearm skills at claybird shooting. It wasn't their hopeless accuracy so much as their complete lack of knowledge of how to shoot properly.
These people were definitely not firearms sports people!
And as for Ms Morse, strip queen of protesters, you can sum her performance up in the real Morse code: -.-. .-. .- - - .. -.--
(that is: dah dit dah dit;
dot dah dit; dot dah; dah dah dit dit; dah dit dah dah.)
its quite clear is some group that was radical and anti capitalist wanted to do a bombing campaign, or shit with arms they would of done it - it would of been well organised and clandestine - not what the camps in the Urewera's was.
The first explanation seemed good enough to fit Trevor's offer, all that has been said in response was that some people on this blog hate the greens and dont like people fromt he Ureweras.
People were doing exercises and training, like people from the army surplus shop in Auckland do - the medieval reinactment group are doing an event at the end of this month in Taupo - are you going to call them barbarians and a threat to NZ? or the army suplus people who do war reinactment and wear german nazi uniforms pro hitler?...
it is ment to be you who prove there was something sinister. what were the army guys busted in happy valley doing? the two army men spies that worked for thompson and thompson - didnt see you doing a beat up then.
people camp a lot in that part of NZ, the Ureweras - some people are involved in military style training, its common with men aii - if you are into self defense and dont like the NZ army or what it does what do you do? you havent proved there was anything sinister there beyond a few radicals with guns, people did it all the time in the 60 and 70s - u seen pictures of abbie hoffman et all aii?
if you dont like the greens that is your choice - that doesnt mean people in the bush out east are a threat to ppl all over new zealand. tuhoe has rights to their land and what they do, as you do at your home.
paul buchanan discredited the accusations of a credible threat, so you should keep to you word trevor and stop using the fasce label of terrorist.
Molotov cocktails! What peaceable, normal hunter or medieval arms enthusiast practises with these?
They are the tools of insurgency and guerrillas.
the only named person thats mentioned molotov cocktails in relation to this case was Helen Clark. hardly an unbiased and reliable source of info as I'm a sure all your readers will agree
Whether or not they used the term Molotov cocktail (actually it was invented by the Finns fighting to protect their country from the Stalinists), they were playing with petrol and bottles.
Now tell me they were just planning to set up AA road-rescue type petrol emergency services.
It is simple. I always used to go pig hunting with a molotov. Saved lugging all that bloody meat back. Perhaps that is what they were doing.
Brian Smaller
helen clarks got a fear of anarchists of course she would go on about molotovs.
running around in the bush with a molotov isnt terrorism though, throwing at certain things is ;)
It wasn't just Helen clark talking about Molotov cocktails
"Morse, 36, of Te Aro, faces three firearms charges, including possession of a military-style semi-automatic rifle, Molotov cocktails and ammunition."
Nothing plausible so far.
Military style semi automatice weapon. What absolute sensational drivel. Have you looked in a sports goods shop lately Trev? They are some of the more popular weapons for sale these days.
I myself prefer the punch of a Dirty Harrry 44 magnum myself. my friends and I pass the time shooting 20 litre tins of water with short barreled Smith and Wesson pump shotguns loaded with lead slugs.. God I love it when the tin explodes in a tidal wave of water.
To heell sticking pigs with knives, I prefer to blow their heads off for a quick kill. I dont know about being in the bush though as mine are usally in a pen out the back of the whare.
Dirk.
Didn't I read about something Paul Buchanan said concerning molotovs and why the police were charging people under the arms act when in fact its not against the arms act laws to possess or even practice with molotovs, or something to that affect.
Anyway I am a member of a R.A.M club and we have had a few discussions about this issue a month or so ago when this whole thing blew up in the media. We use high powered exact replicas paintball guns (AK47s, M4A1s) and wear all the S.W.A.T clothing including balaclavas, our training is essentially military level training and our drills are military equivalent drills. We train ourselves to a level that some SWAT teams would consider challenging, building clearing, overwatch techniques, extraction and squad movement techniques all match those of the military, S.A.S, S.T.Gs and the like.
In my estimate there would be 2 or so dozen teams that do what we do in the bush and in urban assault tactical training. Some are military trained and pass on their skills to us, in some teams even there are members of the NZ police.
So we considered the fact that if the police were to monitor our activities we discussed what would their affidavid report read concerning observations of our training techniques, if viewed from a distance and having no knowledge of the fact that we are a tournament level team. Interesting discussion here though, keep it up.
The above poster is clearly a Melon Green apologist in political camouflage trying to make the Urewera nutters look like normal citizens.
Rubbish. Paintball enthusiasts don't use replicas. A replica is an exact copy of something. They use paintball guns which may look like firearms.
Nor do paintball enthusiasts use molotov cocktails, a popular weapon of guerrillas and
urban terrorists.
The Urewera nutters were training with firearms and molotov cocktails.
'Rubbish. Paintball enthusiasts don't use replicas.'
The Real Action Marker clubs use exact replica paintball guns.
Check these links out;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ_47BU3-5Y
Their main homepage is http://www.nztga.co.nz/
Hope this helps.
http://www.ncsc.co.nz/image2.asp?p=28
Hmmmm Maoist rebels? Viet Cong on the Waikato Delta or RAM teams with camo paint, camo clothes, RAM AK's, oh dear looks like previous anon has a bit of egg on their face claiming 'Paintball enthusiasts don't use replicas'.
The only thing the RAM club member got wrong was about the '2 or so dozen teams' claim, when there are about 40 or more teams all up.
So you don't support the T.S.A, but you do implicitly support the pigs and their 8.5 million dollar expenditure...on arms charges?
It doesn't matter what you maoist paintballers think anyways, thats just a sidetrack from the real issue. Tama and his band of brothers were seen firing live rounds from real rifles. They found something like 15 rifles in the raids of which 4 have been proven to be illegally possessed. There was RPG grenade launchers, fully automatic machine guns, molotovs and the use of Al Qaeda styled communications. What more evidence to you need? Why are these people even out on the streets when they should be locked away for life.
The pro-guerrilla posters are NOT paintballers. They are just trying to lie that the Urewera mob were doing something similar, which is rubbish. Paintballers fire paint!
And re replicas: a replica is a reproduction, a facsimile, but the term is sometimes used for a reproduction exact, but on a smaller scale. A sports device that fires paint cannot by definition be a replica of a weapon that fires bullets. It may look similar, but it is NOT a replica.
I think the sort of people who were up to no good is demonstrated by the poster above who calls our police "pigs". Well there are words we can use for people like him or her, the least offensive of which is trash.
Trev:
Time to close off this post.
The Melon Greens and their mates trying to turn the Urewera nutters into mere sports lovers are down to the broken record technique of .. they are okay, they are okay, they are okay, they are okay.
You have won this won easily Trev.
"And re replicas..............but it is NOT a replica."
Isn't that being a little 'pendantic', at the very least being picky.
"The Melon Greens and their mates..............okay, they are okay."
Now you are being a little melo[n]dramatic old son. I doubt anyone would come in here and post a reply that devulged any real details other than the stuff people have read about in newspapers or put together themselves, so don't hold your breath for anything more.
"They found something like 15 rifles in the raids of which 4 have been proven to be illegally possessed."
4 illegal rifles, phew, that was worth $8 million wasn't it, what, thats $2 million a rifle.
"There was RPG grenade launchers, fully automatic machine guns"
I'm afraid I think the police have withdrawn their allegations about grenade launchers and automatic weapons, so that leaves 4 rifles and some molotofs which may or may not be illegal under our law.
"the use of Al Qaeda styled communications"
Encrypted communications is not Al Qaeda styled...your Bank uses that in online banking, as does this blog with the SSL certificate when you make a post here.
I dont recall calling the police "pigs" my post was about hunting and killing pigs as in pork.
You people have a one track mind and bloody narrow it is too.
Dirk.
At least the Melon Greens are backing off the innuendo that the Urewera nutters were just playing paintball.
The touchiness when challenged over the distortion of the term replica shows which way the Melon Green propaganda is headed.
"They looked like Kalashnikovs, but they were really just replicas of paintball guns, except they fired real bullets."
AND,
"The looked like molotov cocktails but they were just glass bottles full of water with rags in the top. They were in fact non-exploding replicas of molotov cocktails."
Yeah right.
So what's your position on gun licensing laws?
People should be allowed to get on with their lives and own guns without the interference of the state.
Note to Dirk: It wasn't your post that referred to the police as pigs, but see the post from Rangi at 9.43
George:
You provide proof that the anarchists as well as ex-Stalinists like Keith Locke are now within the Green fold.
Melon Greens refers to those green on the outside and red on the inside. What are we going to call the anarcho-Greens?
Perhaps rotten Green would do. Green on the outside, rotten at the core.
anonymous grow some balls and address the issues instead of the semantics
Its Wednesday and the booze is kicking in, what was the original question?
Dirk
Rangi:
So your calling our police pigs is just semantics?
Calling our police pigs is the issue. If reflects the Urewera nutters' contempt for our democracy and its institutions.
Rotten Green's a bit strong for the anarcho greens. How about just Dark Greens, given their black colours.
For the vegetarian Greens we could have the term Salad Greens.
For the marijuana legalisers in Green we could have the Smoky Greens.
For the Urewera nutters we could have the term Jungle Greens?
What do you reckon?
Is a replica a replica if it is a replication of a replica?
A replica of a replica is a replica if its an exact copy of the first replica.
A paintball gun can only be a replica of another paintball gun
No the issue is do you support the "racist pig ass power structure" spending $8,500,000 on arms charges - for 4 weapons to be exact?
Since when are the cops democratically elected?
...or are you contradicting your democratically elected Prime Minister and are they after all one in the same?
Rangi:
The institutions of a democracy such as the police aren't elected. They are the appointed servants of the elected leaders of the democracy.
Since you're obviously close to the Urewera mob, can you tell us if they believe in elections or do hold to Mao's view that political power comes out of the barrel of a gun, and not a paintball gun either???
Some more Green types.
Havana Greens for those who've been on study courses in Cuba.
Sea Greens for those who believe the waves can economically generate electricity.
Tee Greens for wowser golfers who vote Green.
Bilious Greens who folk-dance themselves giddy.
How about pea greens for Greens who go in for organic compost?
Rangi-it all comes down to intent.
There is no doubt that people were training in the ureweras with weaponry.
There is no doubt that some of them were linked to overseas revolutionaries-ie the Zapatistas.
What is in doubt is the intentions of those people.
That is what I'm trying to uncover.
The police claim to have overheard conversations on murder, bombings and mayhem.
That is their side of the story.
What is yours-that's what i want to know.
What was your INTENTION?
I think that last poster meant Pee Greens.
How about Light Greens for those who like to take care of the environment, excluding from this category Melon Greens and Jungle Greens.
Address the question. You call yourselves libertarians, but you want the state to prosecute people for owning guns? Or are gun-rights only for people you like?
Note that this is different from planning anything, a distinction far to complicated for many people to understand....
If you looking for disdain for the current system you need look no further, just in future direct your questions on the topic to Trevor.
You assume a connection on what basis?
I tell you what I know, I know Kyle Chapman used to have pictures of him and his band of fairy men on his website, running around the bush in camo gear armed with...
maybe with your connections you can tell me if they were (replica) paintballs or not...on the same website as praise for the anti semites that defaced jewish burial grounds, and your typical white supremist bullshit
George:
You have to have firearms licences, and for some types of firearms (perhaps now all) you have to have the individual firearm registered.
There are strict rules on their use, and where they can be fired, who can use them, etc. This is typical of most countries.
People are clearly being prosecuted not for the use of guns but for the misuse of them.
Any way, even all but the most extreme libertarians recognise rules are required for potentially dangerous activities. Compulsory driving on one side of the road is one example.
Laws against violent overthrow of democratic states is surely another most libertarians would accept.
George-I was just getting to that.
I believe in minimal gun laws-ie near zero.
I am quite happy for any sane person to own and use guns for legimate puposes-hunting, self defence, target shooting etc.
Guns are neutral-it is what they are used for that is the issue.
If Tame Iti or val Morse want to use guns for legitimate purposes, i have no issue. I don't even think they should need a licence-if they are not convicted criminals or mentally incompetent.
The issue here is one of INTENT.
Were they using arms legitimately, or were they planning to commit crimes?
That is the issue.
Rangi:
This is one poster from the Right who agrees with you about Chapman.
But that makes the prosecution of the Urewera folk more legitimate.
If it's okay for them to drill with guns and fire bombs in the hills it has to be all right for Chapman and Co. too.
Rangi -I am anti the TSA because it gives far too much power to the government.
That said, I suspect that the urewera trainees (at least some of them and possibly all) had criminal intent)
If so they should be tried and if convicted. punished.
I don't give a stuff what the operation cost. If public safety was truly in danger, then I think the police acted entirely appropriately.
If we still had the sedition laws, perhaps the Urewera people could have been charged under that.
Trevor said: What was your INTENTION?
Er Trevor, I dont think the Rangi posting here is Rangi the terrorist. Probably because there is more than one Rangi in the world?
Anon - I'd consider capitalism a potentially dangerous activity. But anyway...
Trevor - I see what you're getting at, and agree with you, but the problem is that the only people who can explain what their intent was are people who went to these camps. Given that they're currently facing charges (or if they're not, they probably don't want any more attention than necessary), there's a snowball's chance that they'll talk publicly before their cases are heard. It simply doesn't make sense for them to engage in trial by media - given how public their cases are, and defense they give would be newsworthy and make the papers. It might suck for you, and you've got a right to keep asking these questions, but I think you're being disingenuous if you expect a response.
George, I couldn't agree more, but you're forgetting that Trev is a conspiracy theorist who thinks that everyone from Nandor to Subcomandante Marcos knows all about what was happening in the Ureweras.
George says the Urewera mob are shunning publicity for legal reasons.
That's why it's being done on their behalf behalf by the Melon Greens.
57 comments! You have touched a raw nerve Trevor.
When is the trial of the proto-terror gang?
George-if those arrested had a legit reason for doing what they were doing. they'd have been saying it clearly and consistently from the start.
Ie "We was rehearsing for a dramatised doco on the maori land wars-here's the script"
Or "We was training people as security guards for the rugby world cup-here's the contract with the NZRFU"
As we've had none of this, one tends to believe the police version of events.
I think you knew you wouldn't get the inside spill here anyways Trevor, the 'As we've had none of this' end was always going to be the outcome, nice trick.
Anyways word is out that alleged terrorists will be blocking the roads in Ruatoki beginning in a few days time.
Five minutes to go and the score is 60-10. Well done Trev!
My new wife is a replication of my first and she was four wives ago, I wonder if i am regressing?
What is it they say about the good old days?
Dirk
Reid-Things kick-off in March. I expect them to drag out for some time.
One of the Rangi's whose been posting here goes on about racism.
The worst racism I've heard of in recent years is Ureweras talk about killing white people to harden guerrillas up.
Shame on those, of any colour, who defend these nutters.
I'm wearing drag tonight. How I hate high heals!
Dirk
Is this the same NZTGA who's club captain Madmandan who promotes NZTGA with members using real shot guns?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMVVsxR0Dso
or the same group which made it into the NZ SAS's History book after members posing at the Playstation 3 release said that they were members of group.
Either way according to the material on the manufacturers website RAM Markers were originally designed as a Law enforcement training tool and perhaps thats were they should be left instead of freely available to the public and cowboy operators like NZTGA.
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