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Tuesday, December 30, 2008

Surprise, Surprise

Every country has its traitors.

From the Communist Party USA's People's Weekly World

The Communist Party of Israel and Hadash (the Democratic Front for Peace and Equality) condemned the deadly Dec. 27 attack by the Israeli Air Force on the Gaza Strip, which resulted in the killing of over 200 Palestinians.

In a statement issued the day of the massive airstrikes, the CPI called on communist and workers parties and social movements throughout the world to mobilize against what it termed “these Israeli war crimes” and called on the international community to “implement sanctions against Israel and indict Tzipi Livni, Ehud Barak and other Israeli political and military leadership for these blatant war crimes, committed as part of Israel's election process.”

The CPI said the attack on Gaza is part of the Israeli government’s ongoing siege of the Gaza Strip. “Israel is exploiting the last moments of the Bush administration to implement the deadly but ineffective imperialist policy of utilizing military force to effect political change,” the statement said.

It noted that demonstrations against the Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip were planned for Israel’s major cities, with demonstrations to be held that night in Tel Aviv, Haifa and Nazareth. The day before, hundreds of demonstrators attended a rally in central Tel Aviv to protest the expected Israeli military operation in response to Palestinian rocket attacks from Gaza. The rally was organized by the Coalition against the Gaza Siege and Hadash.

"I suggest that we go the other direction," said Hadash Knesset Member Dov Khenin, a leading member of the Communist Party of Israel. Israel’s power, he said, “is our tragedy. One powerful blow will not bring the end. [Hamas] will respond with rockets and eventually we'll embark on an all-out war. Going in the other direction means reinforcing the lull, securing a ceasefire, and lifting the siege that only serves to unite the population around Hamas.”

A genuine peace process has to engage the Palestinian Authority, led by Mahmoud Abbas, he said. “What's tragic here is that it's possible. We just need the desire.”

38 Comments:

Anonymous Cameron said...

Trevor, if the NZ armed forces had just bombed civilian areas, killing more than 300 people, based on a very weak argument I would defintely protest. Does that make me a traitor?

I oppose the NZ military presence in Afghanistan. Am I a traitor?

5:33 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Cameron-if a foreign country started firing rockets into Auckland and New Zealand retaliated and you actively tried to oppose our country's armed forces-you would be a traitor.

5:40 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Last time I heard on the recent Israeli airstrikes, I remember clearly hearing Iranian-state run television stating those souls lost were not victims of war, but rather martyrs of the cause to destroy Israel.

How the hell is it that terrorists like Hamas and other similar groups get to be called "liberators" but when use conventional means to wipe them out, you're suddenly the villain? I don't hear any condemnation from the same anti-Israel Left of how Hamas placed its operatives whom were firing rockets in heavily populated civilian areas, or how last week two Palestinian girls were killed when a Qassam rocket fell short of its Israeli target and also injuring a Palestinian man.

What the hell is that kind of leadership if they are described to be "liberators"?

6:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Israel needs to keep bombing the terrorist state of Palestine until they have no will left to fight.

7:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Cameron-if a foreign country started firing rockets into Auckland and New Zealand retaliated and you actively tried to oppose our country's armed forces-you would be a traitor."

Yeah 300 deaths (Including many civilians, women and children) in retaliation for 1 death and 6 injured sure is proportional.

4:46 AM  
Anonymous Reid of America said...

Playing the proportionality game is for losers. Israel doesn't intend to lose because losing means being exterminated. Many say Israel lost the war with hizbullah in 2006 yet there have been no rocket attacks from hizbullah since. A few more victories like that and hizbullah will no longer exist.

Fact is hamas ran on a war platform and was democratically elected. Just like Germany which democratically elected Hitler and the NAZI's. Now the Palestinians have the war that they voted for. Hamas has been telling the world their goal to destroy Israel is not negotiable. Now why would any rational nation do anything other than eliminate a violent group that is dedicated to it's destuction?

It's not about the so-called occupataion. It's about the islamic jihad.

5:08 AM  
Anonymous Cameron said...

Trevor. According to your logic, does that mean Palestinians who oppose the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel are traitors too?

11:34 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"According to your logic, does that mean Palestinians who oppose the Hamas rocket attacks on Israel are traitors too?"

Are you justifying Hamas control over Gaza, and the targeting of Israeli citizens?

12:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kia ora Mah29001

"How the hell is it that terrorists like Hamas and other similar groups get to be called "liberators" but when use conventional means to wipe them out, you're suddenly the villain? I don't hear any condemnation from the same anti-Israel Left of how Hamas placed its operatives whom were firing rockets in heavily populated civilian areas, or how last week two Palestinian girls were killed when a Qassam rocket fell short of its Israeli target and also injuring a Palestinian man."

Hey Hamas were elected Mah (mad as a hatter! - zionist!) by a democratic process. Yesterday I was at a protest outside the American Embassy in Auckland Aotearoa, mate to support the people of Palestine. Made friends with a lovely Palestinian woman (muslim .. OK Mah?) and her beautiful baby. They are refugees here cos of the stuff that Israel is doing in your homeland --- not your homeland your homeland is the big US of A! Who supply all the technology and arms to Israel!

So where is Palestine's homeland? Israel stole their homeland.

Get lost Mah!

Huhana

10:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trevor, if the US invaded NZ would you support a rebel campaign by the NZ Army or otherwise against the US efforts and occupation?

11:12 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"So where is Palestine's homeland? Israel stole their homeland."

People like you are exposed for the true colors in hoping Israel is destroyed. Hamas charter openly states that Israel would be obliterated by Islam, and even Fatah openly views Israel as a threat.

People like you do not care, and embrace a second holocaust against the Jews. Thanks Steve, for exposing what a Nazi you really are. Pardon my French, if I'm speaking the truth.

Funny how you rant of how I'm the "Fascist" and the "Nazi". Last time I also checked, neo-Nazi David Duke openly agrees with your sentiment.

8:19 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Anonymous,

Stop being an apologist for Hamas. I'm sick and tired of this apologetic attitude toward a terrorist group that has the desire to see Israel destroyed.

If some dirtbags were firing rockets into your home, while hiding among heavily populated areas, would you do everything to stop the barrage of rockets?

8:20 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Here's some of Hamas' charter for which anti-Israel advocates here certainly support:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

8:24 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Do any of you anti-Israel advocates support, and justify terrorism against Israel? Two Israeli nationals in Denmark were recently the target of a "lone" gunman, and a Jewish store in Denmark being vandalized by Arab youths.

Do you people support this brand of terrorism reministic toward Nazi-style attacks on Jewish stores? If so, your silence tells all where you stand.

11:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Mah

Same old ... same old. So boring!

Hey ...answer the question Mah29001 (Mad as ...) "So where is Palestine's homeland? Israel stole their homeland."

So glad you do not live next door to me Mah! Do you actually have any friends Mah? I do ...heaps - different religions .... different colours ....different ethnicities - I actually have a life Mah. Your New Year's resolution should be "GET A LIFE". And get out of your tiny little Zionist world. But please, please ... do not come to Aotearoa New Zealand.

Huhana

10:31 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Huhana,

Stop justifying Hamas' terrorism.

7:36 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"I actually have a life Mah. Your New Year's resolution should be "GET A LIFE"."

For someone this rude, please look in the mirror and see what you are supporting. Do you give a damn that Hamas and Fatah both call for Israel's destruction?

Is that how you suggest that these Palestinian terror leaders retake their "stolen" land?

7:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mah stop justifying Israeli terrorism.

8:27 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"Mah stop justifying Israeli terrorism."

How the f*ck is stopping Hamas terrorism? All you expose yourself to be is a hapless Jew-hater. Any non-Jew has the right to defend themselves if they come under attack. It's just wrong that Jews use conventional means to take out the enemy.

9:27 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

You know what you vile anti-Israel advocates, if you came under fire from similar rocket attacks, I would not oppose you from defending yourselves. Even when these very same terrorists purposely hide among heavily populated areas.

Would you do your best to minimize the civilian causaulties as much as possible, while the terrorists try to maximize the caulsities on purpose to get PR blitz to what people like you are recycling? You anti-Israel advocates have no dignity.

9:37 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Have any of you anti-Israel advocates ever give a damn that Palestinian Gazans have been accepted into Israeli hospitals? Or that Arab governments surrounding Israel haven't taken in Palestinians whom have been wounded?

If Israel's committing "genocide" why accept Palestinian Gazans to Israeli hospitals?

9:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Mah29001
"I actually have a life Mah. Your New Year's resolution should be "GET A LIFE"."

"For someone this rude, please look in the mirror and see what you are supporting. Do you give a damn that Hamas and Fatah both call for Israel's destruction?

Is that how you suggest that these Palestinian terror leaders retake their "stolen" land?"

Have a look at the map Mah ... changed hasn't it since WWII! The boundaries have changed under Israel's regime! Put it together Mah29001 .... you are a terrorist via the internet mate - I suggest you look in the mirror ...ooh ... what do you see ...ugly eh!

"So glad you do not live next door to me Mah! Do you actually have any friends Mah? I do ...heaps - different religions .... different colours ....different ethnicities - I actually have a life Mah. Your New Year's resolution should be "GET A LIFE". And get out of your tiny little Zionist world. But please, please ... do not come to Aotearoa New Zealand." ....this is what I said ...can't you read? WTF?

Why do you not respond to the questions I ask you Mad as... e.g. "So where is Palestine's homeland? Israel stole their homeland." Ask my late father he fought in WWII - did your father!?! (Remember I whakapapa to the Jewish race ..!?! But not a Zionist ..OK!)

Don't you have a TV in the Big U.S. of A? (Yeah you don't live in Israel do you Mah!?!) ...so are you actually suffering like the children and babies in Gaza? ...NO you are not! Because you live in the U.S. of A.!! Go and live in Israel ... I repeat ....GET A LIFE!?! So what was actually rude about what I said ....GET A LIFE? Do you have any children or grandchildren Mah? .... doubt it... do you care about anybody Mah?!

What's the score now Mah 4 (Israel) to 450 (Gaza) Hello?

Huhana

10:17 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Huhana,

Stop your lies. You are defending a terrorist group like Hamas. It really bothers me to see how Palestinian nationalists and their supporters like you can not just root for the destruction of Israel, but also for the self-destruction of the very people you proclaim to defend.

Huhana, you're a bigot who supports rocket attacks into Israel. It's anti-Semitic bigots like you who should GET A LIFE.

6:58 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

Huhana,

Before you type your pro-terror propaganda again, do you care that neo-Nazis such as those in the Canadian Nationalist Party have recently rooted for Hamas and attacked Israel as an "apartheid" state, along with stating how the Jews "stole" the land of Palestinians?

http://www.natparty.com/

Like you, these neo-Nazis are at least more honest in their opinion in embracing Holocaust 2.0. I now end this "debate" that you please re-examine how ignorant you are, in other words, you ought to look in the mirror to see who needs to get a life.

6:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any way is a holocaust denier.

11:14 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"Anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any way is a holocaust denier."

Poorest way of "debating" someone who is pro-Israel and shows how ignorant anti-Israel advocates are, that they are on the same page as neo-Nazi groups.

Pathetic.

6:46 AM  
Anonymous Jerry Cant said...

Yeah you keep on with that neo nazi stuff mah...align everyone that opposes you with those groups that persecuted your people. Then attack someone that points that fact out to you.

Pathetic doesn't begin to describe your blind partisan hackery.

9:18 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"Yeah you keep on with that neo nazi stuff mah...align everyone that opposes you with those groups that persecuted your people. Then attack someone that points that fact out to you.

Pathetic doesn't begin to describe your blind partisan hackery."

Keep on proposing ZERO peaceful solutions that would disarm Hamas and Fatah, and create a civil government for the Palestinians. How the hell is that bad? Why do you love to see rockets flying into Israeli homes?

9:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Morena Toxic Mah

"Huhana, you're a bigot who supports rocket attacks into Israel. It's anti-Semitic bigots like you who should GET A LIFE."

Hey Mad as ..... I am not an anti-semite bigot or an anti-marmite ....I am only anti terrorists who invade other nations homelands as Israel has in Palestine.

Have fun Mah29001 ... preaching your bigotry.

Huhana

PS What is the difference between marmite and vegimite??? I can never tell.

11:25 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"Have fun Mah29001 ... preaching your bigotry."

Says the anti-Israel advocate whom endorses Hamas' original charter which calls for Israel's destruction.

Huhana, you are a bigot to seek Israel's destruction because you have no peaceful solutions.

12:19 PM  
Anonymous Jerry Cant said...

"Why do you love to see rockets flying into Israeli homes?"

I don't, thats just it!!! But I know your little penut brain cannot entertain the idea that people can be against any violence. I could ask you the same question reworded, 'Why do you love to see artillery shells flying into Gazan homes?', but that would be pointless because you are blinded with hate and revenge.

1:58 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"I don't, thats just it!!! But I know your little penut brain cannot entertain the idea that people can be against any violence. I could ask you the same question reworded, 'Why do you love to see artillery shells flying into Gazan homes?', but that would be pointless because you are blinded with hate and revenge."

So why are you not protesting Hamas for starting this conflict to begin with? Why are you not calling upon Hamas to change its charter to recognize Israel's right to exist along with Fatah and other radical similar groups such as Hezbollah doing the same?

If Israel's neighbors would recognize Israel's right to exist, perhaps Israel would have no need to send in tanks and its ground forces into Gaza.

But your vile ignorance continues to expose that you do not simply care about the more peaceful alternatives, just the most violent one which includes Israel not being able to defend itself against terrorists whom seek its destruction.

2:12 PM  
Anonymous Jerry Cant said...

"So why are you not protesting Hamas for starting this conflict to begin with?"

I think we are way past who started what. That is a no win debate and has no bearing on what is happening today.

"Why are you not calling upon Hamas to change its charter to recognize Israel's right to exist along with Fatah and other radical similar groups such as Hezbollah doing the same?"

Because calling on any group to change is a waste of time. These groups exist because of misery and people having no hope looking to anyone for help, in this case its Hamas.

"If Israel's neighbors would recognize Israel's right to exist, perhaps Israel would have no need to send in tanks and its ground forces into Gaza."

Israels right to exist needs to move past its bombs and tanks. While it keeps using that tool as a way of entrenching that right of existence, then it only takes someone with more bombs and tanks to challenge that right. Look at the other countries around Israel, many of them also hate each other but have come to agreements that most of the time work.

"But your vile ignorance continues to expose that you do not simply care about the more peaceful alternatives, just the most violent one which includes Israel not being able to defend itself against terrorists whom seek its destruction."

Mah come on mate, enough with the bullshit for a minute. Peace?

Lets check the ballistics here for a sec.

If Israel was so intent on defending its citizens against rocket attacks they would have purchased one of those rocket shield systems that both the US and Russia are hocking off at the moment.

It is the 'constant state of war' tactic that has been Israels best defence against its enemies when its only response or defence of its right to exist is war, but that needs to come to an end and it will have to treat with Hamas because Hamas has also become entrenched.

Which means it needs to bite the bullet and stop categorising Hamas as a terrorist organisation just like the US did with Sayyid Muqtada al-Sadr in Iraq. One minute hes the number one terrorist, next minute hes in the Government even though he has no job in there yet.

4:14 PM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

"It is the 'constant state of war' tactic that has been Israels best defence against its enemies when its only response or defence of its right to exist is war, but that needs to come to an end and it will have to treat with Hamas because Hamas has also become entrenched."

Are you this deaf? Hamas in its own charter states that it desires to destroy Israel. Have you ever taken a look at its own charter? Wouldn't it be better if Hamas took out any phrases like this?

6:48 AM  
Anonymous Jerry Cant said...

"Are you this deaf?"

No I am not deaf Mah29001 just as much as you are probably not as stupid as you sometimes sound.

Because of the failures of Fatah and Israel over the last how many years, Hamas has become like breakfast cereal now, the Gazans now cannot see any other hope other than the false hope Hamas gives them therefore Hamas now has popular support in Gaza.

Simply removing statements from the Hamas charter achieves nothing, as much as calling for Hamas to remove parts of their statement will also achieve nothing.

Do you honestly believe that a rewrite of that charter would achieve peace? Would that suddenly make Israel perk up and want to negotiate with Hamas?

After this ground sea and air invasion to weaken Hamas infrastructure, even with a change in charter which is now looking like it will never happen, would Hamas then suddenly want to negotiate with Israel?

Both you and I know that the answers to those questions are all no so don't bother trying to push that point with me, its just a distraction from the reality on the ground in Gaza.

So what is the remaining options left other than the complete levelling of Gaza Ma29001? Do you know of any?

8:13 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

How about Hamas changing its tone, and reforming itself? I can't believe that I have to discuss this with some people who refuse to accept Israel's right to exist.

If you ever faced a radical group like that, would YOU do everything to call upon that group to change its tone, and let it be more neighborly to you? Yet I won't be a damn jerk to prevent you from allowing to live your life. That's the double standard of people like you.

I have downright had it. No negociations until Hamas reforms itself which I'm sure it's learning its lesson now.

8:56 AM  
Blogger mah29001 said...

I do not see people like you going into other conflicts and demand those governments to adopt peaceful alternatives, without preconditions to change the tones of the radical groups.

Such as in the case of Sri Lanka against the Tamil Tigers whom have just taken control over their headquarters. The Sri Lankan government, like the Israeli government faces daily brand of terror from the Tamil Tigers.

I do not see protests for the Tamil Tigers, as much as I do to prevent the Israeli military into going against Hamas and other radical groups. Henceforth, double standard.

One for Israelis, and the other for Sri Lankans. Where are your comments on Russian government facing Chechen terrorists? Or China facing Muslim extremists in Western China? Yet you hold a different standard for Israel?

9:06 AM  
Anonymous Jerry said...

"How about Hamas changing its tone, and reforming itself?"

Will be a waste of time so I wouldnt bother myself with trying it.

"I can't believe that I have to discuss this with some people who refuse to accept Israel's right to exist."

I was going to let you off this point but I wont. I have always accepted the Israeli state. You are just being a prick to even suggest that I did anywhere in my previous posts state that I didn't. So piss off with that shit Mah, its getting boring.

"If you ever faced a radical group like that, would YOU do everything to call upon that group to change its tone, and let it be more neighborly to you?"

I would first assess whether or not it could change its tone and be neighbourly, in this case Hamas cannot. That demand has to come from the people for Hamas to change, it is completely useless for that demand to come from Israel to Hamas, since they don't take their lead from Israel.

"Yet I won't be a damn jerk to prevent you from allowing to live your life. That's the double standard of people like you."

Again you turn your attacks on me because I do not see things as black and white as you want me to.

"I have downright had it. No negociations until Hamas reforms itself which I'm sure it's learning its lesson now."

That is about as stupid as saying, no negotiations until a leopard changes its spots. Learning its lesson, shit man, they are gaining support all over the world because of this short sighted action of the Israeli military. Thats the lesson those morons are going to take from this, incite Israel into being the big bully and get more support.

"I do not see people like you going into other conflicts and demand those governments to adopt peaceful alternatives, without preconditions to change the tones of the radical groups."

Again, if it is possible for such radical groups to change their tone, then yeah by all means make such calls. I do not see Hamas as one of those so Im too pragmatic to waste my time doing so. The reason I put so much on Israel and Fatah and the people of Gaza and West Bank, is that I believe they can change, therefore is worth looking at alternatives that include them.

"Such as in the case of Sri Lanka against the Tamil Tigers whom have just taken control over their headquarters. The Sri Lankan government, like the Israeli government faces daily brand of terror from the Tamil Tigers."

I look at Iraq, and all the 'terrorist' groups that the US ended up negotiating with for their peace and disarmourment and I see that method, going door to door, clan to clan, clerics, tribal leaders, as the way forward with any of the tribal/clan based groups like the Tamils, Iraqis, Pastuns and any other type groups around the globe.

Is no different in Gaza. In Afghanistan you have the Taliban, and you have all the Pastun clans. The British mostly, are working from clan to clan working out peace deals and buying off who they can buy off, trade deals, cash, whatever it takes, using the same techniques they used in Iraq. This is a recent thing, previous to that they were fighting them all, calling them all Taliban, and burning all their crops.

The situation in Gaza is very similar. You have Hamas, and you have the clans. The very area Israel is fighting in right now as you will no doubt know, is the highest concentration of clans in Gaza, the north east. They are doing what the British and US were first doing in Afghanistan, and not doing too well at it too, and that is lumping all armed groups together as Taliban, or in this case, Hamas. Make sense?

11:29 AM  

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