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Wednesday, May 17, 2006

Asher, Asher, Asher, Asher, Asher....

Asher Goldman over at Anarchia has been pretty excited lately. He thinks he has dug up conclusive proof that an organisation I am involved with, Zenith Applied Philosophy, was once linked to a fascist group, the "Nationalist Worker's Party".

The reason Asher is so thrilled is that when these allegations were raised before, by Russel Norman of the Green Party, I bet him my position in the ACT Party against his position in the Green Party that he could not provide credible proof of his claims. Russel Norman was responding to questions I asked of him after he had confirmed his former membership of an Australian Marxist-Leninist group, the Democratic Socialist Party.

Russel; Were you aware of the association between ZAP and the fascist Nationalist Workers Party?

Trevor; No Russel and neither are you. There never have been any such links. I am willing to bet my membership and position in ACT against your membership and position in the Green Party, that you have no credible proof of such allegations.

Russel did not take up my challenge, but Asher thinks he has come up with the goods.

Asher's evidence consists of an article published in the NZ Herald of 20.6.83

NAZIS, ZAP AND TRIM OUT

One of New Zealand's small but active ultra-conservative groups has expelled "nazi elements" and other extreme right-wingers in an attempt to improve it's image.

The group, New Force, has also expelled sympathisers of two Christchurch-based organisations, Zenith Applied Philosophy and Trim, the Tax Reduction Integrity Movement.

The national director of New Force, Mr B.W. Zandbergen, said last night that youths from the New Zealand Nazi Party had attached themselves to New Force, giving his organisation a bad name.

As well, sympathisers of Zap and Trim had threatened to defect to the proposed new party of Wellington businessman Mr Robert Jones, unless New Force swung behind their free-market, laissez faire philosophies.

"These people (Zap, Trim and the Nazi youths) have got the wrong idea of what New Force was about." Mr Zandbergen said in Wellington.

"It was useless to argue with them, so we have cut our ties.".....

Mr Zandbergen stood for Parliament for New Force in Western Hutt in 1981, on a platform which included repatriation of Pacific Islanders. He got 30 votes.

Asher So, Trev, there's the link proven. You are part of a cult that was too nutty for even Kerry Bolton, New Zealand's longest running Nazi nutter!

I eagerly await news of your resignation.

TrevorNow as Asher has the balls to post under his own name, I will do him the courtesy of replying to these allegations.

Here goes. There are several possibilities here.

One is that the claim of ties and expulsion is a total fabrication on the part of the author/authors, or Mr Zandbergen. I have experienced this before. On David Farrar's blog I was accused of campaigning against the Homosexual Law reform Bill in the '80s and once being involved in an assault on a Lada car owner. Both were 100% untrue. I have also been described in a 1990? newspaper article as a "National Party boss" despite never having been a member of that party.

Two is that TRIM sent out pledge cards to every single one of the several hundred candidates in the 1981 election-National,Labour, Socred, SUP, Independent, Mana Motuhake etc including I am surmising, Mr Zandbergen. Now possibly some correspondence was entered into by someone from TRIM, to Mr Zandbergen. I have no knowledge of this, but perhaps it happened.

If this did happen it would have been purely TRIM business and Mr Zandbergen would have been treated the same as any other candidate. Perhaps in Mr Zandbergen's own mind, he construed this as support for his ideas. Who knows? Perhaps when it became clear that no-one from TRIM had any time for racism or fascism, he cut ties-that is, in his own mind he "expelled" the dirty free marketeers? Note it is the author/authors of the article who use the term "expelled" (implying membership) while Mr Zandbergen merely says he "cut ties".

What I can state with 100% certainty is that no responsible supporter of either TRIM or ZAP was ever a "member" or was ever "expelled" from New Force or the NWP.

Third option is that TRIM had a large mailing list. It is possible that some individual or small group on that mailing list were supporters of New Force. Perhaps they fell out with Mr Zandbergen, when Bob Jones' NZ Party started up? Perhaps he "expelled" them. Again who knows?

Fourthly, perhaps one or two of the hundreds, if not thousands of people who have ever had contact with ZAP over the years, later went on to have some contact with Zandbergen? Perhaps they fell out of favour? That is not a "link", that's just proof that NZ is a small country.

You describe Kerry Bolton as "New Zealand's longest running Nazi nutter".
Presumably you have a similar opinion of his comrade Mr Zandbergen.

These guys are or were nutters. Yet you base your slander of me and my friends on the word of one of them? Do you think for one minute this would stand up in a defamation court? Do you think that because something has been in the paper it must be true?

I have dished it out to lots of socialists and will continue to do so. I believe that anyone active in politics is open to scrutiny, including me. I can also tell you I would be crazy to risk my credibilty on the type flimsy "evidencez" you have presented.

The bottom line is that every group has committed members/students or supporters who define the character of that group. You can only judge a group to any fair degree at all by that core of supporters. You can judge the Catholic Church to some small degree by the actions of the Pope or its senior clergy of laymen, but not at all by the criminal activities of some thug who spent two years at a Catholic Primary School.

I have known all the most active ZAP students over a thirty year period and I can state with no fear of contradiction that not one has ever been a fascist, had any sympathy for Kerry Bolton or Mr Zanbergen, or has ever been a member of, or been "expelled" from any of their organisations.

That's it Asher. Can I possibly make it any clearer?

I've given you a fair run Asher. You've tried to slander me on your Blog and trolled on mine. I have let you say your piece. I've given you the best reply I can, though more for the benefit of my supporters than youself.

So here's what I expect of you Asher. You've shown enough guts to post under your own name, now show that you're man enough to admit you've been wrong and at best, highly irresponsible. Remove the offending post from your Blog (and anywhere else it may be)and post a retraction and an apology.

Do that and show the blogosphere that you are at least man of honour. Don't do it and be judged by all and sundry for what you are.

38 Comments:

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2:45 PM  
Blogger maps said...

Er, Trevor, how do you account for the chapter on ZAP and TRIM in Paul Spoonley's 'Politics of Nostalgia' which discusses not only the ZAP-Nationalist Workers Party connection, citing the same article that Asher has dug up, but also goes into some detail about ZAP's support for apartheid and its distribution of far right literature, including Gary Allen's anti-semitic classic, 'None Dare Call It Conspiracy'. Spoonley cites ZAP members as having boasted of distributing tends of thousands of copies of this book around New Zealand.

So did Spoonley, who is one of New Zealand's most senior sociologists, just make all that stuff up, including the quotes from ZAP literature and other primary material? Or are you going to argue that Allen's book is not anti-semitic and fascistic? Good luck.

3:44 PM  
Blogger maps said...

On a lighter note, here's a letter from ZAP's Fuhrer John Dahlhorf, aka John Ultimate, which Spoonley quotes in his book (it was sent out to ZAPpers in 1978):

'...Jesus talked about being the son of God but no-one has talked about attaining the ultimate state. This has now been obtained here at the centre of the universe...I am the Ultimate now. I have talked to many people recently in other places through different means (eg in their dreams, on their telephones). Many people from other places are now on their way to the centre of the universe'

There is something surreally funny about a guy claiming that the centre of the universe is in, wait for it, Clyde St, Christchurch. Pity about the far right politics and ties to hate groups like the NWP and the League of Rights (remember them, Trevor?)

4:01 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Spare me. I waste an hour of my time re-affirming something I have already stated, then you come straight on and call me a liar.

Re Spoonley. I've read his material and have never been overly impressed. You say he quotes the article I have just dealt with. Shows he doesn't value his reputation much.

Regarding the book None Dare Call it Conspiracy. You quote me one single anti semitic statement or inference in it and I'll send Asher a new sleeping bag to keep him warm at Happy Valley. Does the fact that its co-author, Larry Abraham is half Jewish and there is an endorsement on the back from Barney Finkel of the Jewish Right, tell you anything? I despair of our education standards sometimes.

5:23 PM  
Blogger maps said...

So you're actually defending Allen's book? Can you not see the numerous anti-semitic motifs in it?

Take for example Allen's absurd claim in chapter four that Jews financed the Bolshevik revolution. This has been a stock in trade of fascists ever since 1917, because it helps them associate Judaism and communism. The lie actually goes back to Czarist propagandists. It was first published in English in the racist Dearborn Independent as part of a series of articles called 'The International Jew'. For more info check out:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/ford.html

You'd better send Asher that sleeping bag.

6:17 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Its clear you've never read the book. It says nothing of the sort.

6:53 PM  
Blogger maps said...

'None Dare Call It Conspiracy' is online at:

http://reactor-core.org/none-dare.html

Here's an excerpt from chapter four:

'[the Bolsheviks] came to power not because the downtrodden masses of Russia called them back, but because very powerful men in Europe and the United States sent them in...

The two Germans most responsible for the financing of the revolution were Max Warburg and a displaced Russian named Alexander Helphand.'

Allen goes on to name Rockefeller and Rothschild as other key financers of the Bolshevik revolution. These are the handful of 'very powerful men' - Jewish men - responsible for the Russian revolution in Allen's warped version of history.

As I said earlier, Allen is drawing here on a classic anti-Semitic myth. Not one credible historian of left or right believes that a handful of Jewish financiers were responsible for the Bolshevik revolution. Allen's claim that Warburg et al financed the Bolsheviks is nonsense that only gets aired in the far right press.

This is only one of the many anti-Semitic myths in Allen's book. Others include the claim that Jews financed Hitler's rise to power, and that the Federal Reserve System was a scheme organised by international fianciers with - wait for it - Jewish names.

Allen openly uses anti-semitic publications like the Dearborn Independent as sources for some of his claims. The claim that the Federal Reserve System is part of a conspiracy, for instance, comes from the famous American anti-Semitic priest, Father Charles Coughlin, who published in the Dearborn Independent.

One of Allen's sources for his claim about the Bolsheviks being financed by Jews is Arsene de Goulevitch, a White Russian refugee and virulent anti-semite who was an apologist for the pogroms of Jews that were a feature of pre-revolutionary Russia. Allen calls de Goulevitch's 'Czarism and Revolution' 'one of the best books on the Rusian revolution'.

Allen's book is indefensible, and yet ZAP devoted immense energy to distributing it to the New Zealand public.

7:34 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

What a load of cobblers. Name one passage in the book that names or infers that the conspiracy Allen and Abraham write about is a Jewish one. The sources you quote are part of the "Jewish Conspiracy" school that goes back to the "Protocols of Zion" and beyond. Allen and Abraham wrote the book partially to "deZionise" conspiracy theory. Pages 39 to 40 dealspecifically with this. I quote from a portion of it. "Anti Semites have played into the hands of the conspiracy by trying to portray the entire conspiracy as Jewish. Nothing could be further from the truth. The traditionally Anglo Saxon JP Morgan and Rockefeller international banking institutions have played a key role in the conspiracy...." Go to the link MAPS provides and check it out for yourself.

Then there is the little matter of Jewish authorship and endorsement that MAPS has failed to address.

It is fine to doubt Allen and Abraham's conclusions or challenge their scholarship, but it is another thing to accuse them of Anti Semitism. That is patently dishonest, which obviously you are MAPS as you have clearly read the book after all

I don't mind honest criticism and I don't mind being called on what i write. I have never censored one comment on this Blog.

I do however object to people telling knowing and blatant lies on my blog. Don't come back MAPS.

8:05 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

PS MAPS Since when was the Rockefeller family Jewish? They are Baptists.

8:08 PM  
Blogger muzzlehatch said...

thats strange, what happened to the last comment from MAPS? It was there a minute ago... Has the censorship begun already?

9:56 PM  
Blogger Heine said...

"muzzlehatch", don't fall into the same category as Maps. He was banned, can't you read?

Trev - this always happens. The stupidest and most desperate of the lefties resort to name calling only because they cannot think for themselves. The Nazi talk is scraping at the bottom of the barrel, something these bottom feeders excell in.

10:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does Trevor deny that many of Gary Allen's sources are anti-semites?

10:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The links are very clear. Loudon, you're a liar.

11:40 PM  
Blogger Heine said...

anon. As far as we're concerned, you're as bad as this Asher fellow. Put up or shut up.

Trevor asked Asher to prove it and he has whimpered off to his own "blog".

12:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well for instance, is Arsene de Goulevitch, Allen's source for his interpretation of the Russian revolution as a conspiracy by businessmen, a wacked-out fascist or not? A quick google search shows that he is, or was. A lot of the other names don't sound good either. And some of the book makes no sense at all even from an Act perspective:

"That is what the game is all "Communism" is not a movement of the downtrodden masses but is a movement created, manipulated and used by power-seeking billionaires in order to gain control over the world first by establishing socialist governments in the various nations and then consolidating them all through a "Great Merger," into an all-powerful world socialist super-state probably under the auspices of the United Nations The balance of this book will outline just how they have used Communism to approach that goal."

Maybe he was on drugs....?

12:34 AM  
Blogger Sonic said...

So your rebuttal is

"I say it is not true so it is not"

Not a good look if that is all you have.

11:59 AM  
Blogger Sonic said...

The first review here manages to dig out lots of anti-semitic statements from Allen's book.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A21050RQCCVWKX/103-9838234-6916662?_encoding=UTF8

Better pop down to the shops for that sleeping bag.

BTW does anyone here know enough about newspapers to tell me if this headline would be too long?

Act leader defends New World order, Freemason, Jewish conspiracy publication?

1:13 PM  
Blogger Heine said...

It won't at all because you haven't proved anything. The media wouldn't touch that with a barge pole. Whats the bet it never sees the light of day?

1:19 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

I could send them this comment thread

(not that I would of course, in my view what happens online stays online)

2:01 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Sonic, you and anon positively shock me with your shoddy logic. I asked for one example of an anti semitic statement in the book. All you have provided are (a) opinions about the alleged anti semitism of one source, de Goulevitch (does driving a Ford make you anti semitic, because old Henry was widely believed to be anti semitic?(b) opinions of what Allen and Abraham are really saying in a "code" hidden behind there actual words.

I prefer to deal in what is actually written, not someones opinion of what it all secretly means.

So what we have here is a book with not one anti semitic statement in it. Not one. It does mention some Jewish surnames, but mentions a hell of a lt more Anglo ones.

It has a half Jewish co-author, is endorsed by the leader of a Jewish organisation and states at several points that the conspiracy being investigated is emphatically not Jewish, but spans several creeds.

To you guys this is proof positive that the book is really written in anti semitic code. Sure and Uncle Tom's Cabin is secretly anti black.

Guess you can find anything in anything if you look hard enough.
I don't care about the message of this book. It could be argued forever. It's also well outdated and superseded by events now. The message is not actually the point.

The point is that the book is being called anti semitic and therefore anyone associated with it must also be anti semitic, when there is absolutely nothing in TEXT to support this.

Maybe I'm not smart enough to see the hidden code like you guys do.

All you two have proven is that paranoia runs deep on the left.

I will add that Asher looks like he's set for a cold winter

2:43 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

Ok leaving aside the anti-semitoc bit the book argues that there is a worldwide conspiracy (sometimes referred to as the New World Order) which secretly manipulates events.

Some excerpts

"the Professor (Quigley) describes (the goal of the cabalists) as "nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country, and the economy of the world as a whole". In other words, this power mad clique wants to control and rule the world. Even more frightening, they want total control over individual actions."

"...numbered from birth (social security number?) and followed, as a number, through his educational training, his required military or other public service, his tax contributions, his health and medical requirements, and his final retirement and death benefits."

"It (the cabal) wants control over all natural resources, business, banking, and transportation, by controlling the governments of the world. In order to accomplish these aims the conspirators have had no qualms about fomenting wars, depressions, and hatred."

"...(the cabalists) operate in an extremely efficient manner, at least in the higher levels of leadership. It (they) make use of every possible means at its disposal, be they scientific, technical, social, or economic. It (they) follows a perfectly mapped out strategy. It (they) hold almost complete sway in international organizations, in financial circles, in the field of mass communications, press, cinema, radio, and television."

Now anti-semitic or not this is clearly twighlight zone lunacy of the first order.

So my question is do you agree with some or all of the books central thesis that a "cabal" secretly runs the world manipulating events for it's own evil purpose?

To say "I don't care about the message of this book" is an evasion at best.

2:57 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

I really don't know sonic. I am a conspiratorialist in that I believe events tend to happen more by design rather than chance. My 20 years of research on the left, including interviewing several former Marxist-Leninists have left me in little doubt that that is the way they work.

If one believes in the conspiratorial theory of history, logic tells one that one conspiracy must be bigger than the others.

The biggest "conspiracy" on the planet in my opinion is the UN. That organisation is the biggest threat to my freedom that I can see. Now it wants to levy taxes and raise a standing army.

Is it run by blood drinking secret society satanists, or merely by Marxists, socialists and synchophants? I have seen more credible evidence for the latter than the former. I suspect the latter.

I'm not being evasive sonic. I simply don't know how organised the centralisation of global power is. I only know that it is unfortunately happening.

I deal with those threats to our freedom that I understand well, the Marxists, their cousins the Radical Islamists and the garden variety syncophantic, power hungry bureacrat.

Regardless of whether freedom diminishes by accident or design, the results are similar.

The solutions are also the same-decentralisation of power at every level, lower taxes, less bureacracy, educational choice, more individual sovereignty, the slashing of state power over the individual and strong constitutional safeguards.

So to answer your question sonic, I do believe in conspiracies, but only those I can document, or understand.

The rest I keep an open mind on.

3:35 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

3:40 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

Why the delete?

4:32 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Because you deliberately misquoted what I said. Rather than close off anonymous comments from now on I will simply delete abusive or deliberately dishonest posts. Property rights in action.

4:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Don't worry, Trevor - I think you've hung yourself pretty well with that last long post about how the Marxist UN is taking over the world!

7:12 PM  
Anonymous James said...

Anon...the activities of the UN are there for all to see.

1:27 PM  
Blogger Heine said...

James, no use arguing with Anon, hes too much of a coward to put a name to his stupidity. Don't give him any respect. People like him prompted me to take off anon comments because the left are using them to lower all levels of debate.

5:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Clint: "The Nazi talk is scraping at the bottom of the barrel, something these bottom feeders excell in."


Oh the irony Clint, especially on this blog...

11:44 AM  
Blogger Heine said...

Anon, you speak with self absorbed authority and yet cannot put a name to your so called "facts".

Until you do so refrain from such nonsense. Trolls like you deserve no respect whatsoever.

6:05 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4:42 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

What again?

You really have a problem with criticism don't you?

9:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sonic is a pedophile

3:57 PM  
Blogger Sonic said...

And anon cannot spell it seems!
;)

11:32 AM  
Blogger Rafe said...

Mr. Loudon I fail to see how you have disproved Asher in the first place. While he and Maps at least referenced to some material, you just sat down and typed a whole load of un substantiated drivel which has no basis or solid grounding in reference and what not, and you expect us to believe it. You mock and batter those who don't follow your political ideals for making ungrounded claims (even though their claims have more evidence and baking than yours do), and then you applaud those who agree with you for just blindly believing what you have fed them. Frankly, people involved in politics should be more responsible, or indeed sensible that you're fucking with people's brains.

I also fail to see what is so terrible about an organisation you are part of once being tied to fascist and neo-nazi organisations. Frankly the disgust you fill me with, with your blatant disregard for anyone else's thoughts or beliefs and arrogant belief that you, just like this John Ultimate guy, are the centre of the Universe which you seem to radiate through every word you write, is unchanged by learning your organisation might possibly have groundings in neo-Nazi splinters.

The old 'evil' people are afraid of and hate was once the Nazis, now they are either forgotten or not strong enough to make a blind bit of difference to the world. It is you and your kind that are the new political terrorists. Why do you get so many hits? Because when people read what you write you evoke very strong emotions. I know that I read your writings and feel a kind of morbid inability to comprehend just where your mind is coming from (try to insult me for being unable to comprehend such things and you only parade immaturity).

And what's with all the censorship? In your own words... "I believe in freedom with responsibility" - your view of freedom must be fairly skewed if you believe that freedom of speech isn't included in there somewhere. Or that the responsibility you refer to is the responsibility to silence others. People themselves have the responsibility to question those things they do not agree with. Only that is freedom, because freedom of the mind is far more important than freedom of the body.

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7:06 PM  
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6:33 PM  

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