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Friday, February 02, 2007

Teanau Tuiono and Tino Rangatiratanga

Teanau Tuiono and his group Te Tino Toa, have created a media stir over their threat to raise the "Maori flag" on Auckland Harbour Bridge this coming Waitangi Day.


It should be made clear that the "Tino Rangatiratanga" flag, is not the "Maori" flag, it is the Maori REVOLUTIONARY flag.

It is to NZ and to moderate Maoridom, what the Hammer and Sickle was to Russia.

Tuiono and his comrades plan to milk this publicity all they can.

From Indymedia

Spokesperson for Te Tino Toa, Teanau Tuiono said 'its nothing new for indigenous peoples to be ignored and our aspiration stifled by the Government and their agencies -that has never stopped us'.

'This Waitangi Day we are calling for all people to fly the Tino Rangatiratanga flag wherever they are to show their support for indigenous rights here in Aotearoa'

'Indigenous brothers and sisters from the Aboriginals to the Navajos have said they will fly the Tino Rangatiratanga flag in solidarity'


'The flag symbolises the struggle for Maori self-determination and embodies the hopes we have for future generations as a thriving indigenous nation'

'We have received wide support from Maori and non-Maori organisations across the country including schools, environmental organisations and Pakeha New Zealander's.'

'Aotearoa is in a state of change and mainstream New Zealand is ready to acknowledge indigenous rights, that is the challenge that is currently before the Government."


Tuiono is one of a new generation of Maori activists. Steeped in "National Question" politics, their agenda is to promote Maori Sovereignty as a means to promote "anti-capitalist" change.


During the mid '90s Tuiono was;

...one of the founding members of the urban Maori organisation, Te Kawau Maro. This organisation attacked the neo-liberal Government policies, advocated direct action against land sales and unjust land settlements through occupations and other strategies and disseminated information to Maori communities about what is now known as the 'fiscal envelope.

In 1996, Tuiono was a 21 year old student at Auckland University. He stood for Parliament on the ultra-radical Mana Maori Party list. He was active in the university's Nga Tauira Maori (maori students association) and joined with Marxist radicals in the occupation of the university's registry building.

In September 2000 Tuiono issued a press release protesting the NZ/Singapore Free Trade deal, on behalf of Maori "sovereignty group "Tino Rangatiratanga"

"Prague Style Protests to Hit Aotearoa if Singapore Deal Continues"

Tino Rangatiratanga advocates attending the Prague anti-World Bank, anti-IMF protest say that New Zealand will face the same types of action if the Government pursues the Singapore Trade deal. The Aotearoa delegation is in Prague as part of the People's Global Action group (PGA), a coalition of activists from around the world. The PGA meeting will coincide with that of the IMF/World Bank annual meeting.
"The fight against globalisation and neoliberalism is the continuing struggle against colonisation, and like our ancestors before us we will resist!" said South Pacific Convenor Teanau Tuiono

The other contacts for this release were:

Tauni Sinclair-an Auckland University radical who planned to travel to Cuba in January 1997 for a "political training camp"(Craccum 13,1996).

Maria Bargh-now a Maori Studies lecturer at Victoria University. She has written for "Struggle", the journal of the pro-Beijing, Organisation for Marxist Unity.

Helen Te Hira-a leading member of the neo-Maoist, Auckland University Radical Society.

In 2001, Tuiono attended the first International Youth Summit.

Their aim: to build a network of global youth resistance and create a manifesto of demands for action from the official adult handwringers at the United Nations World Conference Against Racism (WCAR).

Many young attendees lambasted U.S. support of the Israeli occupation, the country's dominance over the WTO and IMF, and its support of repressive regimes.

Teanau Tuiono, a young Maori man who is part of the international People's Global Action Network, added, "We have to talk about the economic situation because often it's the working-class whites in New Zealand who lose their jobs and take it out on us. I say, 'Hey man, we're not the one who privatized all the industries.' "

In 2002, Tuiono was a Facilitator and Wellington contact for the Activism In Aoteroa gathering in Wainuiomata. Organised members of Radical Society and Peace Movement Aotearoa, these events were designed to bring Marxists, peaceniks and Maori radicals together for training and information sharing.

In September 2003, Tuiono and Helen Te Hira addressed a mini-conference on alternatives to the World Trade Organisation in Wellington, "against the WTO and its free trade policies".

Clearly Mr Tuiono is pretty radical activist. Maybe its time he grew up and "flagged it all away".

63 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

jeez trevor, thought you said only marxists were a threat. Teanau ain't a marxist and you have a whole page on him.
Mr G

3:51 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Geez Mr G. There are heaps of threats to our freedom-including parking wardens.

I don't see Teanau as a big threat-he'll probably abandon his dreams of being a Maori "Che" and become a respectable lawyer with a big mortgage one day.

As "respectable" as a lawyer can be, I mean.

4:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

nice google assemblage, sorta, you might want to sharpen up on it, but yea i never studied geography, and im not a marxist. and if your a libertarian why do u care about flags anyway?

11:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/741/tinobridge2ta1.jpg

What a glorious sight. I can't wait to see it hoisted there.

12:28 AM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Thanks Teanau-sorted the geography mistake.

Never said you were a Marxist-always regarded you as more of an anarchist if anything.

Flags are important symbols. The Tino Rangatirataga Flag is a symbol of racial seperatism, so I oppose what it stands for.

1:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Its funny how people play the 'racial' card when something Maori comes up. Why is it 'racial separatism' to want complete equality within Govt and society for Maori? Maori running Maori things. It's not separatism, it's called justice.

2:08 AM  
Anonymous samoasamoa said...

I didn't bother reading anything you wrote. But it's nice to see you fly the Tino Rangatiratanga flag on you website. I looks beautiful.

samoasamoa

3:50 AM  
Blogger Mel said...

Kia Ora
I agree with samoasamoa. Thank you for flying the Tino Rangatiratanga flag on your blog. It is a beautiful sight to behold.

Mel

1:40 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

"Maori running Maori things. It's not separatism, it's called justice"

So it is anon. Just as long as maori run their own organisations with their own money-I'm all for it.

If Maori start demanding autonomy over other taxpayers money however that's different. That's socialism and I'm agin' it.

Mel and Samoasamoa. Indeed its a nice flag, but then so was the swastika and the hammer and sickle.

Just shows that a beautiful flag can sometimes represent bad ideas.

2:18 PM  
Anonymous Hannah said...

Please be informed that the flag is not one of separatism but of tino rangatiratanga as agreed by contract when te Tiriti o Waitangi was signed.

In 1990 there was a national flag competition in New Zealand. None of the entries showed any Maori acknowledgement or inspiration. TE KAWARIKI had there their own Maori flag competition. The winning entry is shown above on this very page.
Black represents Te Korekore the realm of Potential Being. The long darkness from whence the world emerged. It represents the heavens. The male element is formless, floating and passive
White represents Te Ao Marama the realm of Being and light. It is the physical world, where symbolises purity, harmony and enlightenment. White also symbolises purity,harmony enlightenment, and balance.
The Koru, curling frond shape, represents the unfolding of new life, that everything is reborn and continues. It represents renewal and hope for the future.
Red represents Te Whei Ao, the realm of Coming into Being. It symbolises the female element. It also represents gestation. Red is Papatuanuku, the Earth Mother, the sustainer of all living things. Red is the colour of earth from which the first human was made.http://aotearoa.wellington.net.nz/back/flag.htm

Contrary to common assumption and populist urban myth, the Tino Rangatirataga Flag is NOT a symbol of racial seperatism except in the minds of the ill informed or ignorant. Check the facts before allowing yourself to be swayed by ignorance or media who seek to sensationalise and titiliate those without structural analysis. (How many times have you stayed on a marae?)

2:34 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Interesting post Hannah.

I don't doubt the origins of the flag. It is what it symbolises now that is important.

The swastika was a benign symbol until the Nazis got hold of it.

Your use of the term "structural analysis" intrigues me.

Are you aware that the original term was "Marxist structural analysis"?

Pioneered in NZ by Mauritian priest P Fanchette and Marxist priest, John Curnow, "SA" has been used for years to indoctrinate Kiwis of all races into accepting the Maori "self determination" line.

Tariana Turia is a big fan of the process.

What's the point of your marae question Hannah?

I hope it isn't meant to imply that if I haven't visited enough marae, I'm not qualified to comment on matters Maori.

3:24 PM  
Anonymous James said...

"I hope it isn't meant to imply that if I haven't visited enough marae, I'm not qualified to comment on matters Maori."

Yes...its like saying that to become a Botanist one first needs to have experienced life as a plant..


There is no such thing as "Maori"...just human beings.

3:34 PM  
Anonymous James said...

"I hope it isn't meant to imply that if I haven't visited enough marae, I'm not qualified to comment on matters Maori."

Yes...its like saying that to become a Botanist one first needs to have experienced life as a plant..


There is no such thing as "Maori"...just human beings.

3:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

isn't our sovereign parliment?
our elected representitives from the citizens, of all races.
Doesn't maori sovereignty mean that this body is selected on racial grounds?

8:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trevor, I take issue with your likening the tino rangatiratanga flag with that of the Nazi's and the former USSR. The Tino Rangatiratanga has not been flown while the slaughter of 6 million Jews were carried out, nor was it flown when millions of Russian soldiers were sent to their deaths on the Russian Front. Nor was it flying over Apia when Samoan Maomao protestors were protesting in their own country...no wait that was the New Zealand Flag. The Tino Rangatiratanga flag in this country is the only flag that can claim it hasn't been soaked in innocent blood. You can't claim the tino rangatiratanga flag to be anything, it is your opinion and your opinion is flawed, it is obviously flawed because your would compare the tino rangatiratanga flag with that of the Nazi's. You have no idea what it actually means, only an assumption of what the media feeds you when protestors are rightly protesting. As for taxpayers...Maori are taxpayers too, and per capita...it might surprise you...Maori pay for their own health, social welfare etc... through taxes they pay. Dig around Stats New Zealand for this fact, this fact was realised three years ago. So, Maori taxpayers do pull the load, their fair share..Stats New Zealand are calling the next 15years ahead, the browning of New Zealand. Get used to it Trevor, the tide has turned...it's time to share resources, those selfish ways of the Colonial European of 'My House, My Castle' are over...Maori are communial, so I suppose you could call us communist..pretty soon our genetic cousins from China are going to be quite significant in number in good old Aotearoa

9:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You didn't actually answer the question about staying on a marae Trevor.
It's not compulsory but does add to ones understanding of things maori.

9:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Yes...its like saying that to become a Botanist one first needs to have experienced life as a plant.."


No infact your analogy would imply there was a request for this guy to become maori, i seriously doubt that is the case. Generally though a botanist would come into contact with a plant, before he was able to write anything of any substance on it.

9:33 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Lighten up anon.

Your posts give you away "its time to share the resources"

My basic thesis is that the Tino Rangatiratanga movement is a branch of the revolutionary socialist movement.

You've just confirmed it.

Thanks for that.

9:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

er Teanau wasnt the wellington contact for Activism in Aotearoa, he just spoke at it, I was there. might want to change that as well, Trev.
Marcus Loyd

10:24 PM  
Anonymous James said...

"No infact your analogy would imply there was a request for this guy to become maori, i seriously doubt that is the case. Generally though a botanist would come into contact with a plant, before he was able to write anything of any substance on it."


Before calling someone an infant you may wish to learn some grammar first...it would help you to not appear such an illiterate moron.

""its time to share the resources"

Well then you and the Bro's just need to get off your lazy backsides and earn your share then comrade...the most useful resource is the one sitting on top of your shoulders....start there.

10:37 AM  
Anonymous Steve Nice Guy Northland said...

Address the real issue Trev. The real issue is that Maori have been raped for over 160 years. The Treaty of Waitangi was substantially a tool in the "grooming" of the "natives" (euphemism for "savages"). It was conceived by a colonial power to keep Maori calm, contained, and non-resistant in the face of the outrageous (if in colonial terms unremarkable) rape and plunder of every aspect of Maori being which commenced in earnest only a few years later.

A bunch of far-right wing two percenters can obfuscate, fume, and rage as much as they like with scary tales of commies and radicals but the real issue has nothing to do with the stuff of their nightmares.

From time to time I pose this question to Maori whom I know well enough to raise it with at all: "Have you ever experienced discrimination and rejection solely as far as you can see, on the ground that you're Maori ?"

Every single one, from every walk as it happens, responds in this vein: "Of course I have, of course I do !" Their responses and the looks on their faces make me feel bad for even asking. It's palpable, of course !

That's why the issue ain't going away mate. Maori have been and are still being deprived, ill-treated, and discriminated against by Pakeha power and money. The expectation seems to be that Maori lie down, be good, compliant little boys and girls, accept with gratitude the lowly space reserved for them in this society, and turn a blind eye to the fraud.

That's a dream I believe and certainly hope Maori will steadfastly not oblige. Who could blame them ? Would you were you Maori ? Have you ever stepped out of your anti-commie-buzz and asked yourself how you would feel ?

That's the trouble with right wingers "Freedom-Fried" in this area. They know nothing of the concept of walking, or even imagining walking in the moccasins, before mouthing off with "their" perspective, with "their" generally demeaning prescription for Maori.

It reflects a stunning ethnocentricity and gratuitous sense of racial superiority - as useful as tits on a bull in this issue, in this country.

12:02 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Lighten up Steve.

Free markets and free societies make people valuable for what they can achieve, not who their ancestors were.

The answer to the discrimination you complain of is not more of the socialism that has exacerbated the problem.

The answer is freeing up society and getting the state out of people's lives.

Maori have been fucked over by welfarism even longer than "pakeha" NZers.

That's why Maori are tops in most negative statistics.

More freedom is the only solution to the problems of racism and discrimination that you rightly highlight.

Apologies about the four letter word. I thought it was appropriate.

12:20 PM  
Anonymous Steve Nice Guy Northland said...

Here we go again - right wing prescriptions. You have nothing to say, no acknowledgment or recognition of the fraud. That is the issue, if inconvenient.

You exemplify the essential expectation of the two percenter right wing; that Maori need only lie down and trust in "your" freedom and all will be well. We'll be a happy little "one nation".

Well that prescription hasn't stood Maori in very good stead, commencing circa 1840, has it ?

Load of crap, both philosophically and practically. I don't believe it's going to happen. Neither should it.

You're excused for the language. It is after all only a rather more colourful than usual obfuscation and meaningless overall.

12:50 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Serves me right for trying to debate rationally with you.

1:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well James, I do use whats on my shoulders, you might want to try it some time. I have laid out the sources of information for you and Trevor to check out, how much Maori taxpayers pay in taxes, and how much resources of this country Maori actually use (welfare, health etc..) guess what..Stats New Zealand and many Govt Depts in their reports say that MAORI TAXPAYERS are getting ripped off... These figures are OFFICIAL go and research James and Trevor, James there is no need throw insults, it is a retort of someone that truly can not engage in civilized debate and has to resort to vulgarity and expletives, truly the sign of one that does not engage in considered thought processes. I have laid out plain what you and Trevor obviously have no intention of researching, so I must conclude that both of you like to continue your mutual delusions and mutual admiration of each other. Trevor, the line I take, and the source of my angst is your juxtapostion of the Tino Rangatiratanga Flag and the Nazi flag...I maintain the tino rangatiratanga flag has NOT had blood spilt over it, however the New Zealand Flag has. Maori fought in the WW1 for New Zealand, only 53 years earlier, Maori fought for their homes and land, where were Maori property rights then? They wanted to determine how they should pay their taxes and to whom, they did not want to give taxes to the Govt (refer Dog Taxes) these are all aligned with you Libertarian ideals aren't they Trevor?? Rua Kenana tried to do this very same thing in Ruatahuna during the first World War and so did those in Parihaka, result imprisonment and confiscation. Actions speak louder than words James and Trevor.. if either of you had the testicular fortitude, you both would emulate what these people did in Parihaka and Ruatahuna they held the ideals of of libertarianism. Maori have given more to this nation than any other, land that was unjustly taken, blood that was spilt in the name of the empire and country, staying true to Christian values to succour the wounds of your enemies (Gate Pa) a pre-cursor to the Geneva Convention for Prisoners of War. I come from a family that worked communially (an ideal of communism)and tended our gardens and farm, that farm has surivived the 1980's subsidy withdrawl because Maori farmers were not afforded that subsidy from the Govt, only 'working farms' It seems ironic that the highest producing Dairy farms in the country are Maori owned farms (source Federated Farmers). Oh, these had nothing to do with the Treaty claims, just good management.
So yeah take what you want from this information James and Trevor, I know that you both will not even entertain the thought that quite possibly Maori can be sucessful without handouts. Claims are not handouts, these are redress for injustice..and that will take more research on both yours and James part Trevor..that is..if you can be bothered.

2:23 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Anon-point by point.

Re taxes-irrelevant. I don't think you understand me here anon. My post is an attack on th "Tino Rangatiratanga" movement, not on Maori.

Take things a little less personally. I am criticising a wrong-headed movement, not the people it claims to represent.

Does attacking Nazism make you anti German?

The flag you refer to has not had blood spilt over it and hopefully never will.

However it has come to represent socialist revolution. You might claim it doesn't, but the evidence is pretty clear when you see the multiple links between pakeha revolutionaries and TR advocates.

As a libertarian, I would support the anti tax stands of early Maori.

I support prperty rights and low tax for Maori today-as does the party I belong to, ACT.

I do not support silly Che "would bes" going around thinking they're going to overturn the government of my country.


Where have I insulted Maori, or their productive capacity? Where have I doubted that Maori could succeed without handouts?

The Maori in my own family have done just fine all by themselves, thanks very much.

So lighten up anon and read what I actually write, then we might reach some mutual understanding.

3:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The comments you have made are exactly what Tino Rangatiratanga are about...and it does not what separate states, Tino Rangatiratanga does not believe the this Govt or any other Govt before has done well for any of us. It is about an alternative to the current system. So yes, I do read your post. I am glad that you have family that are Maori that are doing well, I hope as well that others in your family are doing well. The Tuhoe have a flag and have strived to have their property and rights recognised, their flag is called Te Mana Motuhake o Tuhoe. Google that to find out more info. My comments about Nazism does not make me anti German, it makes me anti-Nazi, as my Grandfathers had killed many of them in North Africa and Italy while they were in the 28th Maori Battalion. The Nazi's were not only German. They were Austrian, Romanian and Bulgarian as well. However they would claim after the war they were annexed, it did not stop them swelling the ranks of the German Wermacht, Luftwaffe, Panzergrenade,Waffen SS and Gestapo. The day when you see people being loaded into cattle train carriages under the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is the day you can make a comparasion of the Nazi Flag, the Soviet flag and the Tino Rangatiratanga flag, otherwise it is just really pushing the proverbial up hill.

5:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1:13 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Tino Rangatiratanga flag in this country is the only flag that can claim it hasn't been soaked in innocent blood."

Give it time comrade, give it time.

EXOCET

8:11 AM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Hone-deleted your post for repeating a lie, that I have already dealt with several times on this blog.

Don't believe everything you read.

11:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Libertarian unless i disagree with your opinion

12:08 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Don't mind opinion anon. Lies about friends of mine are something else.

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ditto

4:45 PM  
Blogger Sam Buchanan said...

Seems to me that lots of people fly the Tino Rangatiratanga flag - many of whom are anything but revolutionary, so why do you consider it to be a revolutionary flag?

A while back you could buy ice creams with Che Guevara's picture on the packaging. That doesn't make the ice creams Marxist, or the ice cream company or the dairy owners revolutionaries. Same goes for the dopes that wear Che T-shirts.

At one point waving a red, white and blue tricolour was a sign of a revolutionary, but I wouldn't be popping down to the French embassy to sniff out people trying to overthrow capitalism, Trev.

5:46 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Symbols do change their meanings of course Sam.

However I have studied the TR mvement pretty extensively and have uncovered a huge number of links to the Marxist-Leninist and socialist movements.

Most people who wave TR flags have no idea what they're doing.

They are being manipulated by those who do.

7:18 PM  
Anonymous pakeha lady said...

Fantastic to see the flag on this page.

I'm gonna enter it in the competition Te Anau and others have set up.

Maybe you'll win a prize!

Te Tino Toa is running a competition for the most creative display of the Tino Rangatiratanga flag on Waitangi Day.

11:27 PM  
Anonymous Sam Buchanan said...

It's certainly true that Marxists have run after the TR movement like happy yapping puppies, but you've presented no evidence that TR people are being manipulated.

The Marxists will come door-knocking to any political movement that shows a bit of traction, so what?

1:34 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Sam -read my "National Question" series (16 posts so far) and then tell me that Marxists haven't been manipulating Maori nationalism for decades.

4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Transit New Zealand rightly declined the request by Anglo-Maori race hustlers to fly a Maori Sovereignty flag from the Auckland Harbour Bridge on Waitangi Day.

Someone needs to tell these entrepreneurs of ethnicity that historically there was no collective “Maori.” Pre-European New Zealand was made up of hundreds of dispersed and petty tribes, each in a constant state of war with every other tribe, and lacking any concept of nationhood.

Some 512 chiefs signed the Treaty and many didn't, so the number of these petty tribes must have topped 600.

The Declaration of Independence of the so-called "Confederation of the United Tribes of New Zealand" and associated flag is often cited by Maori activists and their white Communist enablers as evidence of a pre-existing Maori nation state.

This is absolute bollocks. The Declaration of Independence was cobbled together by British Resident James Busby to head off fears of a takeover by the French.

Initially carrying the signatures (or rather the thumbprints) of 35 Northern chiefs, it was eventually signed by around chiefs all residing north of the Firth of Thames.

The signatories pledged to "meet in Congress at Waitangi in the autumn of each year, for the
purpose of framing laws for the dispensation of justice, the
preservation of peace and good order, and the regulation of
trade."

However, due to tribal animosities and jealousies the putative Confederation never met nor passed a single law.

The so-called "Maori Flag" (not the tino rangatiratanga Maori sovereignty flag of the 1990s)is another oft-cited precedent by those claiming a Maori nation state existed in 1840.

This flag was adopted by the Northern chiefs, again at Busby's behest, after a NZ-built ship owned by Pakehas was impounded in Sydney for not flying the flag of a recognised nation state.

Busby presented the chiefs with a variety of designs and they eventually chose the flag of the Church Missionary Society. What we're talking about was simply a Pakeha-brokered expedient to protect New Zealand's pre-Treaty commerce.

Because no Maori nation state existed when the Treaty of Waitangi was signed in 1840, there was no Maori name for what is now New Zealand. Those who drafted the Treaty were instead obliged to use a transliteration of New Zealand, “Niu Tirani,” to get their point across.

As Trevor correctly identifies, the Maori Sovereignty agenda owes far more to the writings of Lenin and Stalin on “The National Question” than it does to any historical transgressions by white settler governments.

The Communist objective in promoting the independence aspirations of minority ethnic groups has always been to bring them into violent conflict with the status quo, thus undermining national consensus and bringing about eventual socialist control.

Thankfully this Waitangi Day didn't see the Auckland Harbour Bridge pressed into the service of such an agenda.

Someone at Transit deserves a fucking medal!

5:22 PM  
Blogger Sam Buchanan said...

"Someone needs to tell these entrepreneurs of ethnicity that historically there was no collective “Maori.” Pre-European New Zealand was made up of hundreds of dispersed and petty tribes, each in a constant state of war with every other tribe, and lacking any concept of nationhood."

What a load of rubbish, Anon. I'd love to see you reference your claims that activists maintain there was a Maori nation-state pre-1940, but I imagine you just made this up. Saying iwi and hapu were in a constant state of war is also total nonsense. You are very ignorant.

5:39 PM  
Blogger Sam Buchanan said...

"Sam -read my "National Question" series (16 posts so far) and then tell me that Marxists haven't been manipulating Maori nationalism for decades."

Marxists haven't been manipulating Maori nationalism for decades.

5:41 PM  
Anonymous Ngati Pakeha said...

What a load of old rubbish Trev, you see reds under the bed in everyone including Maori. Gee have you got any friends apart from Anonymous, Exocet and Mah?

I guess you'll lable me a commo to 'cos I think the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is awesome.

6:06 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

"The Communist objective in promoting the independence aspirations of minority ethnic groups has always been to bring them into violent conflict with the status quo, thus undermining national consensus and bringing about eventual socialist control"

Sums it up perfectly anon.

Sam-Sorry, I should have added "honestly".

8:26 PM  
Anonymous Huhana Murray/Ngati Pakeha said...

Hey my name ain't Sam or anon. I think you do know who I am Trev 'cos I don't hide my e mail address. And no I ain't a commo or an ex NDU official either Trev. (Found any photos of me on the web? I don't think so!) Hopefully you won't make up any more stuff about me!
Spot ya I am hoha now - don't think I want to come back to this blog all I see is commo, commo, commo.

9:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe Trev sees reds under the bed because there really are reds under ther bed.

And I think that the Tino Rangatiratanga flag is NOT 'awesome', but the local equivilant to the hammer and sickle or the swastika. So there!

EXOCET

8:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sam Buchanan wrote: "What a load of rubbish, Anon. I'd love to see you reference your claims that activists maintain there was a Maori nation-state pre-1840, but I imagine you just made this up. Saying iwi and hapu were in a constant state of war is also total nonsense. You are very ignorant."

There was no such thing as an "iwi" in 1840. The iwi was a creation of statute in the 1940s when the Labour Government sought to create pegs on which to hand its[supposedly] "full and final" settlements of the Taranaki, Tainui and Ngai Tahu claims.

The functional social unit of pre-European Maori society was the hapu, or sub-tribe. So when I use "tribe" I mean "hapu."

While all hapu in a particular locality might trace descent back to a particular ancestral canoe, each was in a constant Hobbesian state of nature with every other hapu.

Read "Old New Zealand" by FE Maning for just one account of this inter-hapu feuding.

"For women and land, men die" is a venerable Maori proverb summing up the basis of these feuds.

The advent of the musket wars in the 1830s meant local feuding often had to be put aside for a while, as hapu in a particular locality were obliged to bury their differences and combine against an external aggressor. Once the attacker was seen off, old inter-hapu utu animosities soon resurfaced.

The claim for a collective Maori sovereignty rests upon the assertion that the Declaration of Independence of the Confederation of United Tribes was formally recognised by King William. Big deal.

Since only 57 tribes (less than 10 percent of all tribes) north of the Firth of Thames signed the Declaration, this isn't even remotely evidence of a national consensus.

And the demonstrated impotence of those who signed the Declaration to act, or even deliberate in concert, further gives the lie to the Maori sovereignty claimants.

Buchanan also wrote:

"Marxists haven't been manipulating Maori nationalism for decades."

Trevor has provided voluminous and irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

The key to revolutionary Marxism lies in an understanding of the Marxist concept of Dialectical Materialism.

Marx married Darwin's theory of evolution with Hegel's dialectical materialism and applied it to the development of human society. He asserted that all human societies are evolving inexorably "upward" to their "highest and best" form, Communism.

"Upward" change occurs any time an existing social condition (thesis) comes into conflict with a new social condition attempting to emerge(antithesis). Out of this dialectical conflict comes "synthesis" which is then put through the process again as the new thesis, until full Communism is achieved.

While they believe this will happen anyway, the Marxists will use any opportunity to help the process along.

They are expert at creating or colonising groups that have (or can be persuaded that they have) a grievance against the existing social order.

By mobilising the disenchanted and persuading those whose raison d'etre is to engage in public moral preening that the cause is just, a handful of Marxists are able to multiply their effectiveness many thousand-fold.

The Marxists then sit back and laugh while the dialectical conflict they have orchestrated becomes a ticking bomb within the bosom of the existing capitalist society, abetting by those seeking to become card-carrying members of Club Virtue.

Buchanan is a typical liberal "pinko" unwittingly supporting socially destructive pro-ethnic nationalist doctrines that originated with Communists.

Lenin once referred to these witless enablers as "useful idiots."

US columnist Joe Sobran used the metaphor of a hive of bees to describe this group:

"To become a Bee in this Hive is to surrender, voluntarily and eagerly, your own personality; to submerge the self in a collectivity; to prefer the buzzing cliché of the group to individualised thought and expression; to take satisfaction in belonging, and conforming, to a powerful mass, while punishing others for failure to conform. This is not only a political but a spiritual condition.

"The similarity to an insect colony — where the individual exists only functionally, being both indistinguishable from and interchangeable with its fellows — is not superficial. It’s of the essence. To be an insect is to be relieved of the burden of having a soul of your own."

1:04 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Well written anon.

8:40 PM  
Blogger Sam Buchanan said...

"By mobilising the disenchanted and persuading those whose raison d'etre is to engage in public moral preening that the cause is just, a handful of Marxists are able to multiply their effectiveness many thousand-fold."

Wow, these people are clearly brilliant political operators. Funny, the Marxists I meet don't seem all that remarkable. Frankly, I just don't give them the credit you guys do.

I also recall that Maori resistance to colonialism began at least three years before Marx published The Communist Manifesto - did they get some preview copies?


"Buchanan is a typical liberal "pinko" unwittingly supporting socially destructive pro-ethnic nationalist doctrines that originated with Communists."

That's great!!! Can I quote this in an upcoming 'zine?

10:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sam Buchanan wrote:

"I also recall that Maori resistance to colonialism began at least three years before Marx published The Communist Manifesto - did they get some preview copies?"

This statement deserves to be mercilessly deconstructed. There was no collective "Maori resistance to colonisation." Some chiefs and tribes at various times resisted or rebelled against the Crown's authority. Most were chiefs who never signed the Treaty in the first place. The historical record shows that the majority who did accepted and complied with their Treaty undertakings.

Since the Communist Manifesto was published in 1848, the incident to which you refer is presumably Heke and Kawiti's Northern War of 1845.

This is often misrepresented as being a response so-called breaches of the Treaty of Waitangi, but this untrue.

Heke felled the flagpole at Kororareka several times. Far from being a protest against colonisation, Heke was angered because in 1845 the Governor had moved his capital from Kororareka to Auckland.

Not only had the mana of hosting the Governor gone to Ngapuhi's traditional enemies of Ngati Whatua, but Ngapuhi lost the customs fees, landing charges, ship re-victualling and provision of ship girls from which they'd previously derived considerable revenue.

The protest was not about colonisation at all, but about loss of mana and a painful hit to the hip pocket nerve.

Heke and Kawati had no wider support even amongst Ngapuhi, and a number of chiefs of other Ngapuhi hapu led by Tamati Waka Nene aided the Crown in putting down the insurgency.

Certain Maori tribes have always been opposed colonisation. As noted in earlier posts, some 512 tribes signed the treaty, while a number elected not to.

These were primarily the Tainui and Tuwharetoa tribes in the centre of the North Island, who'd discerned immediately that their acceptance of Captain Hobson would place Queen Victoria and her descendents in perpetual authority over them, then decided that this was not what they wanted.

Te Heu Heu, the paramount chief of Tuwharetoa, repudiated the Treaty in the following terms:

"Away with this document. I will never consent to the mana of a woman resting upon these islands. I myself will be chief of these isles. Therefore begone!"

Another chief at Coromandel, Piko, didn't sign the Treaty because he was "desirous of governing his own tribe."

Contrary to revisionist claims the chiefs were clearly well aware that they were getting a ruler and not a "partner."

The Tainui tribes elected a "King" in 1858. This later led to war between the Crown and the Kingitanga. This was not a "Land War" as has been latterly misrepresented, by a war of conquest undertaken by the Crown to impose its sovereignty on a group of recalcitrants outside the Treaty covenants who were attempting to stir up a nationwide rebellion including involving tribes who'd signed it.

Tainui and its handful of allies lost that war, but have remained bitter ever since. Until the Communists identified anti-colonialism as something they could exploit and began agitating amongst Maori in the 1930s, Maori separatism remained a minority strand of opinion.

During the Waikato War, the Kingite tribes and a few neighbours fought against the Crown and its allies. A number of loyal tribes (who'd also suffered the depredations of Tainui during the musket wars and saw an opportunity for a little payback) took the field on behalf of the Queen. The majority of tribes took no part in the conflict.

So it was not "Maori" who protested colonisation but a relative handful of malcontentents.

You need to lose your collectivist habits of mind and read a bit more widely imho.

12:56 PM  
Blogger Trevor Loudon said...

Thanks for the background anon. I must confess i'm a bit lacking on NZ history of that era.

It makes it easy to fall for propaganda when you don't know your history.

1:18 PM  
Blogger Sam Buchanan said...

Don't be silly, anon. The phrase "Maori resistance" means that there was resistance by Maori - it doesn't imply that all Maori resisited or that there was collective resistance by the totality of Maori.

As for saying it was only a "relative handful" who protested - how many are you talking about? Personally I haven't a clue. I don't believe there were any opinion polls in those days, nor much accurate recording of numbers involved in the various forms of protest. Protest in various forms - from warfare to petitions to civil disobediance - seems to have been very widespread. Do you have any knowledge of the numbers involved or are you just trying to down play the protest to support your politiocal preferences?

"Until the Communists identified anti-colonialism as something they could exploit and began agitating amongst Maori in the 1930s, Maori separatism remained a minority strand of opinion."

Actually, Maori separatism is, and has always been, a minority opinion. Once again, you are giving the communists too much credit.

BTW, you refer to Ngapuhi - are you the same anon who was saying there was no such thing as iwi in the 1840s?

4:37 PM  
Blogger Sam Buchanan said...

Don't be silly, anon. The phrase "Maori resistance" means that there was resistance by Maori - it doesn't imply that all Maori resisited or that there was collective resistance by the totality of Maori.

As for saying it was only a "relative handful" who protested - how many are you talking about? Personally I haven't a clue. I don't believe there were any opinion polls in those days, nor much accurate recording of numbers involved in the various forms of protest. Protest in various forms - from warfare to petitions to civil disobediance - seems to have been very widespread. Do you have any knowledge of the numbers involved or are you just trying to down play the protest to support your politiocal preferences?

"Until the Communists identified anti-colonialism as something they could exploit and began agitating amongst Maori in the 1930s, Maori separatism remained a minority strand of opinion."

Actually, Maori separatism is, and has always been, a minority opinion. Once again, you are giving the communists too much credit.

BTW, you refer to Ngapuhi - are you the same anon who was saying there was no such thing as iwi in the 1840s?

4:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Ngapuhi" is the collective name of a groups of hapu who resided in a particular locality (Northland) and traced their descent back to a common ancestral canoe.

All the chiefs who initially signed the Declaration of Independence of the Confederation of United Tribes (35 in all) were from "Ngapuhi."

However, inter-tribal (inter-hapu) animosities meant this body never met nor passed any laws despite their common undertaking to do so.

Clearly, as I point out earlier, the funtional social unit of pre-European Maori society was the hapu or sub-tribe.

Don't be obtuse.

9:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you deleted my post because it contained a 'lie', not very libertarian of you Trev, very controlling and govt like, leave us link on this whole ZAP business , this blog isnt easy to search
Hone

12:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trev you cant seriously believe this horseshit?

it reads like an episode of the X-files

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenith_Applied_Philosophy

Hone ' the real libertarian' Mills

12:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you actually hang with John Ultimate? the guy who thinks christchurch is the centre of the universe? another crazy zapper like yourself? no wonder poor old rodney hide doesnt have a shit show in the political arena with you on his side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalhoff

12:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

""Ngapuhi" is the collective name of a groups of hapu who resided in a particular locality (Northland) and traced their descent back to a common ancestral canoe."

Much like many other hapu, this is what it is called now. Up until the 1940's most 'Ngapuhi' referred to themselves as decendants of Rahiri. Noone comes from a canoe, its made of wood. If you get time, read a book called IWI by Angela Ballara.

11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Trevor,

I can't believe how simplistic your arguments are.

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3:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think whenever it comes to Maori, the pakeha and government will always come to racial comments no matter what the topic or discussion is, the reason I say this is because me being half tongan and half english, all I ever see is the govt and pakeha putting Maori down through all the alcohol, drugs, cigarettes and the swearing. They say that Maori drink alot, smoke cigees alot, smoke the herb alot and swear alot, but do they realise that it was the pakeha who bought all these things to the country when they invaded new zealand, who the hell do they think they are, they shouldn't have bought the crap here in the first place, and then to take the land from the people who were here b4 them. I hate the government they are there 4 themselves only and dont give a dam about any of us poor people

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