Gorbachev's True Colours
There are two main schools of thought on Gorbachev.
The majority view-Gorbachev was a genuine reformer who destroyed the power of the communist party of the Soviet Union and in so doing, wrecked the union and handed the West the "Cold War".
The minority view-Gorbachev was the tool of the CPSU, whose role was to stage a fake destruction of Soviet power, in order to break up the Western alliance and pave the way for a Russian/Chinese final assault on the West.
I remember some years ago interviewing a former member of the NZ Socialist Unity Party who had trained in Moscow in the '80s at Lenin's Institute for Higher Learning.
This school trained thousands of foreign communists in subversion and Soviet strategy.
This man was told by one instructor, that Andropov had been chosen by the party hierarchy to lead a stunning "liberation" that would rock the West.
"Unfortunately" Andropov died of kidney disease, so Chernenko the old style hardliner was installed in the top job, while a new man could be groomed.
As soon as he was suitably trained, Gorbachev took over.
Now that China has openly allied with Russia, Gorbachev seems to think it safe to show his true totalitarian colours.
MOSCOW, April 17 (RIA Novosti) - Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, now head of a socioeconomic and political think tank, said opposition marches in Russia only undermined stability in the country.
Opposition protests, March of Dissent, were held in Russia's two largest cities over the weekend. Rights groups, oppositionists and journalists have accused Russian police of abusing their power in dispersing the unsanctioned opposition demonstrations. A total of 250 and 170 people were detained respectively.
"Somebody wants to complicate the situation in the country and push for instability," Gorbachev told a RIA Novosti news conference. "We must learn our lesson, and tell those who arouse fear in society that it is unacceptable."
The first and the last U.S.S.R. president backed President Vladimir Putin, crediting him with the current stability in Russia.
"He has done a lot to turn the country towards modernization, I support Putin," Gorbachev said.
The majority view-Gorbachev was a genuine reformer who destroyed the power of the communist party of the Soviet Union and in so doing, wrecked the union and handed the West the "Cold War".
The minority view-Gorbachev was the tool of the CPSU, whose role was to stage a fake destruction of Soviet power, in order to break up the Western alliance and pave the way for a Russian/Chinese final assault on the West.
I remember some years ago interviewing a former member of the NZ Socialist Unity Party who had trained in Moscow in the '80s at Lenin's Institute for Higher Learning.
This school trained thousands of foreign communists in subversion and Soviet strategy.
This man was told by one instructor, that Andropov had been chosen by the party hierarchy to lead a stunning "liberation" that would rock the West.
"Unfortunately" Andropov died of kidney disease, so Chernenko the old style hardliner was installed in the top job, while a new man could be groomed.
As soon as he was suitably trained, Gorbachev took over.
Now that China has openly allied with Russia, Gorbachev seems to think it safe to show his true totalitarian colours.
MOSCOW, April 17 (RIA Novosti) - Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, now head of a socioeconomic and political think tank, said opposition marches in Russia only undermined stability in the country.
Opposition protests, March of Dissent, were held in Russia's two largest cities over the weekend. Rights groups, oppositionists and journalists have accused Russian police of abusing their power in dispersing the unsanctioned opposition demonstrations. A total of 250 and 170 people were detained respectively.
"Somebody wants to complicate the situation in the country and push for instability," Gorbachev told a RIA Novosti news conference. "We must learn our lesson, and tell those who arouse fear in society that it is unacceptable."
The first and the last U.S.S.R. president backed President Vladimir Putin, crediting him with the current stability in Russia.
"He has done a lot to turn the country towards modernization, I support Putin," Gorbachev said.
posted by Trevor Loudon at
4/19/2007 08:20:00 AM
23 Comments:
Isn't it interesting for people to attack Bush as a "dictator" but have someone like Gorbachev who was lauded to be a "reformer" by the West to go back on his word and support the Kremlin crackdown on dissidents?
They are all "Dictators" Mah.
I suggest Its not about political ideology as much as power, money, greed. Capitalism and communism are just tools used by man to achieve the goal.
It aint never going to change. Better to get rich and join them- whomever they are.
Dirk.
" Capitalism and communism are just tools used by man to achieve the goal."
Please Dirk, stop this sort of agitation really. It's getting quite annoying.
I don't buy this analysis.
Russia and China are not natural allies the way the United States and Canada are. There is a deep under the surface tension between Russia and China over the future of Eastern Siberia. Chinese are moving into the territory illegally. Will Russia maintain longterm control of it's eastern empire? A situation is brewing that may end with China taking political control. It is a process that is similar to individual Americans in the late 18th century illegally moving into French Louisiana territory. France lost control of the territory and sold it to the US as a way to save face and avoid being completely routed militarily.
The situation is different today but the borders of Russia and China are not set in stone.
I cast my mind back to the pac made between Hitler and Stalin.
The rest as thet say, is history.
Dirk.
I think you are right Dirk, I believe that Russia is turnnig a blind eye to Chinese expansionisim in Siberia for a temporary peace.
Russia has bigger fish to fry.
EXOCET
Well too bad if you're "annoyed" Mah. Too Bad! It's hardly a valid "debating" tool to confess "annoyance" and demand the silence of others. So think again.
Anyway, you're "annoyed" by anything other than a slavish submission to extreme right-wing zealotry tending to fanaticism.
I said ages ago: you remind me of me when I was a callow 14 year old, writing oh so smug bullshit apologies for US crimes in Vietnam. As though me mouthing off and scoring 90% plus in all my high school assignments was what mattered - forget the napalmed babies. Yes Mah, the good old US of A did that! And all the crap I wrote was plagiarised from pious sophistry furnished by the US Information Service in Welington.
But, at the age I could be forgiven. Within a few years I'd grown up. I perceive, I may be wrong, that you're considerably more senior.
So there's no excuse for you, apart from zealotry tending to fanaticism. And that's very uncool, as it is with the mad old commies I've come across in the past 30 odd years. Mouthy idiots who held their own cooked-up, cocked-up dogma more precious than human beings.
Kia Ora !
"Well too bad if you're "annoyed" Mah. Too Bad! It's hardly a valid "debating" tool to confess "annoyance" and demand the silence of others. So think again."
KNOCK IT OFF ON THE PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ME!
" said ages ago: you remind me of me when I was a callow 14 year old, writing oh so smug bullshit apologies for US crimes in Vietnam. As though me mouthing off and scoring 90% plus in all my high school assignments was what mattered - forget the napalmed babies. Yes Mah, the good old US of A did that! And all the crap I wrote was plagiarised from pious sophistry furnished by the US Information Service in Welington."
That's it STEVE, you have crossed the line. I have had it with you getting away with your personal attacks. NO MORE! People like you often lecture others on how "ignorant" they are akin to the Imus situation.
In the Imus situation, Imus got canned for his comments, but people like you get away with all sorts of horrible things to say. Such as lying about the British-Iran hostage crisis. Promoting 9/11 conspiracy theories. Calling a U.S. President a "terrorist". Damning the second amendment when you folks often lecture America should uphold the Bill of Rights in this time of conflict.
Please steve, if one were to see who should grow up, look in the mirror. Your personal attacks on me have gone too far, and I am putting my foot down, and I pardon my language to Trev in advance for it.
"So there's no excuse for you, apart from zealotry tending to fanaticism. And that's very uncool, as it is with the mad old commies I've come across in the past 30 odd years. Mouthy idiots who held their own cooked-up, cocked-up dogma more precious than human beings."
Please steve. Don't lecture to me about how "tolerant" you are when you have not shown one shred of tolerance toward someone like me. You call me a "Mouthy idiot who held my own cooked-up cocked-up dogma" and then have the nerve to call yourself "tolerant" with your personal attacks like this?
Seriously, if spending time all on a blogsphere attacking the likes of people like me is all you do in "proving" who is the tolerant one here, well then I rest my case. You certainly got nothing better to do but to make personal attacks on-linie like this do you?
Sorry in advance to Trev if he feels I have gone too far or anything like that.
"you remind me of me when I was a callow 14 year old, writing oh so smug bullshit apologies for US crimes in Vietnam."
Don't you dare suggest how every U.S. soldier is a "war criminal" because that is what you are doing. I know people who are going to go into the military via ROTC. You know what you remind me of? An apologist for the atrocious totalitarian Communist regime of Ho Chi Mihn and the other fellow dictatorships that sprang up after the U.S. forces left the region.
You attack me as a "cooked-up dogma" and all sorts of other personal attack mechanisms, but when it comes to you supporting a totalitarian Vietnamese government which still exists today by its human rights report that came out on its attack on religious groups and other political parties, there doesn't seem to be an ounce of outrage from you, quite similar to your lack of outrage against the terrorist insurgency in Iraq which has often massacred Iraqi civilians on a daily basis.
Now I do apologize to Trev in full advance for this, but it needs to be told against any apologist for the totalitarian Communist Vietnamese state and its surrounding fellow comrade dictatorships. You lecture me steve on how "wise and tolerant" you are from 30 sum years, but I do not see one cent of you being wise or tolerant when you make these sort of personal attacks on me or on any of my fellow Americans.
Now I truly apologize to Trev for this, but to steve, you are perhaps one of the most intolerant, ignorant and self-centered people I have come across in my entire life, and for you to suggest how "wise" and "tolerant" you are for your 30 sum years when you haven't shown it on this blogsphere whatsoever.
Well, I think your own words speak for themselves. Now I do apologize to Trev and to anyone else on this blog in 1000 percent advance. I can understand if Trev might see me going too far right here, but this needs to end now, and I do not want someone like steve making constant personal attacks on me.
Oh, Oh, Oh!!! - that you would discard this obseqiousness to Trev, My Mate Mah.
Makes you look "cringing", Dickensian really, so very, very "'umble". Terribly unattractive! Can't say I'm surprised however.....
Let's get down to the matter "you" raised. In my book the ultimate personal attack is to prescribe deathly solutions for the world's "ills", solutions which depend on the 98% - no, that's ACT territory, 99.7% - submitting to the inhuman rigours of your wooly dictates. At whatever cost, death, mutilation, dislocation, ruination of life - well, to "them" of course. Damn It! Why do you question?
As though we aren't even talking human beings here. Sounds like......you know - The Reich, The Bloody, Stinking, Insane, Reich. As though "they" are mere numbers, symbols, lifeless figments. That "they" can be "dealt with" as you please, to meet your pretty, Chickenhawk-ish picture. Roses and scented fountains in Baghdad etc. Gimme A Break!
How viciously, psychotically personal is that? We are - I remind you - talking about "persons". Hundreds of millions of them! Yet Mah hath spoken and so it shall be!
At least I pay you the respect of addressing you by your name (granted, in various pleasingly sardonic permutations). I don't however treat you like a tin soldier pushed up and down the Bremworth, or mere fodder in your "Grand Plan". That's what you do though, in respect of the very large segment of humanity "not loved", which means "hated", by you.
I at least acknowledge your humanity. I do confess to doubts though.....
So enough of the apoplexy Darling......enough of the "Stop It, Stop It, Stop It!"
While you, with your "Grand Plan", prescribe for humanity the horrors you do, I will answer you. Don't pull this "I'm Annoyed" nonsense. You chose your thoroughly human-being unfriendly pose - not me!
It's the old bizo about the "Kitchen"..... and bold type won't help. It means nothing. Even at my age I'm not poor of sight! Don't need it.
Kia Ora Darling....
Must say I'm very, very interested in the concept of "1,000 per cent, in advance".
I smell that bastard Shylock around here somewhere. Not even in arrears. Damn, that's hard!
Hey MAH (Mad as ....) Are you on drugs or something???? And why do you keep apologising to Trev? All the time you keep apologising! Hoha! (means boring?) But you still don't answer my questions. Only asked you two questions.... hello?
I don't see anybody attacking you .... certainly not Steve (whoever) or Dirk or on your blog site. They just debate - you silly thing.
Gee this is a real hardcase blog - very entertaining! Goodness me I think I am becoming addicted .... and I said I would not come back here again! It's only 'cos you are so funny MAH - so is your blog! Hoha actually! Are you really old and have senior moments? Silly old fart.
Would you like me to post on your blog? ...nobody else does in the big U S of A! I will if you would like me to.
HAM (your Trev gave me that name!)
"Would you like me to post on your blog? ...nobody else does in the big U S of A!"
Reid of America is posting from the USA.
"As though we aren't even talking human beings here. Sounds like......you know - The Reich, The Bloody, Stinking, Insane, Reich. As though "they" are mere numbers, symbols, lifeless figments. That "they" can be "dealt with" as you please, to meet your pretty, Chickenhawk-ish picture. Roses and scented fountains in Baghdad etc. Gimme A Break!"
So I guess if someone like me who is pro-Capitalist, favors Israel and promotes Zionism is somehow "supporting" the Reich? This is another personal attack on me steve. You can not seem to read what I say can you? Only dribble on how I am a "Nazi", a "Fascist". Now isn't that going too far Trev with someone like steve referring me to the Third Reich, when I also post an article detailing of how the Israeli youths fear a second holocaust? Gee, that's something a Nazi would certainly be quite concern, oops, it's the other way around as a neo-Nazi for that matter would WANT a second holocaust as how you steve often laud support for terrorists who often attack Israel or America in Iraq.
Steve, you are certainly not that quite aware of how states like Iran which got their materials from seemingly "former" Communist states like Russia have supported and lauded holocaust denial and invite the likes of David Duke to the holocaust denial conference, but you have the nerve to refer me to the Third Reich?
Boy steve, you simply have a low intelligence and lack of tolerance and wisdom you proclaim to "prove" to me that you have over your 30 sum years. When you compare me to a "Nazi" through using the "Reich" you have gone too far and that my comments on you are correct of your intolerance toward others on this blogsphere.
It's also quite strange as why you steve would constantly bully anyone who supports Israel as well into referring them to be "holocaust Nazis" while you shy away from bus bombings implemented by terrorists against innocent people and then you have again the nerve to refer me as the "insane Reich"?
Well what can I say? Trev perhaps it's alright you go about and moderate steve's comments. I do not see someone like steve could promote anything but these sort of personal attacks.
I also would like to know steve when are you going to protest all of those car bombings by terrorists in Iraq which a more recent one killed up to nearly 200 Iraqis. But you have to nerve to refer U.S. soldiers and people like me to be part of the "Reich" when you fail to protest this?
"I smell that bastard Shylock around here somewhere. Not even in arrears. Damn, that's hard!"
This has gone too far with these sort of personal attacks. Trev, please do something about the likes of steve. I do not want to be bullied or being lumped with the "Third Reich" at the same time this same person ignores brutal terrorist attacks in Iraq along with also not condemning bus bombings against Israeli Jews.
It's gone too far, and I am tired of people like steve making these sort of threats and personal attacks.
Of course I condemn bus bombings and the deaths of innocent people be they Jewish or Arab. It's clear that forever and a day you'll insist otherwise, but that's a singularly peculiar aspect of you. All I can say about that is "Whatever....."
We are though still left with IDF: 10 - Palestinians: 1. And The Chickenhawk's complicity in that. The good, God-fearing dullard he is.
Stop your whining Mah. If you can't hack it concentrate on your own, as I understand it, ailing blog site. Where Mah talks to Mah, essentially, and no one visits. How come I wonder?
I've already said why I'm dead against your notions. They are cruel in the extreme. If to say so is "bullying" as you claim, well tough!
You blithely propose obscene "solutions" which would kill millions, then get all snotty when people respond robustly.
"Pleading" again and again for Trev to suppress. How wimpy and snivelling is that? Have a nice day mate!
"I've already said why I'm dead against your notions. They are cruel in the extreme. If to say so is "bullying" as you claim, well tough!"
In every single damn post you got to attack, attack, attack me. Can't you do anything else on this blog besides attacking people you do not like? How about actually debating? Or all you are good at is attacking?
""Pleading" again and again for Trev to suppress. How wimpy and snivelling is that? Have a nice day mate!"
How about that Skylock comment toward someone like me? Linking me with the "Reich" doesn't qualify for Trev to come over and moderate your comments for your constant attacks?
You have attacked me at nearly every single post you can take. You say you are not bullying, but you are with these personal attacks. This has got to end NOW because I for one have had it with being attacked in this manner so often by ilk such as you.
To Trev, please do something about steve. At every other post, he has made personal attacks on me along with also attacking anyone else who steps up to the plate. I do not like this sort of atmosphere of there being a post of a personal attack against myself whenever I come around these parts. Please do something about this, because I will not stand for this.
What, you gonna petition the US Supreme Court or something?
I doubt the august justices would have room in their calendar chappie. Challenges to your Zionist Zeal is not actually a matter of great public moment as far as I can see.
This escalating hysteria is completely out of order Mah but if you must keep it up. In doing so
you prove my point really. Such mortified plaintiveness highlights that you're all for democracy and freedom of expression only as long as your strangely hued feathers aren't ruffled.
In short, that is grossly egocentric, grossly hypocritical. Think you're above the rest of the world do you Mah, with special licence? It's that Hot Old Kitchen again Honey.
And for the record, I would put heaps of money on a relatively negligible incidence of terror in Iraq if The Chickenhawk hadn't "high-nooned" his way into town. Living out his adolescent, cowboy fantasies from the security of the Rose Garden, his "I think, therefore it is!", and satisfying the big biz backers of the real president, Cheney. The same applies to the actions of the IDF (10 - remember) and the Palestinians (1 - remember).
Most of the rest of the world anticipated these consequences in Iraq and eschewed out of hand the utter fantasy of the invader being embraced. Too late to cry foul and weep the absence of courtly southern manners when the palpable reality is pointed out. But blow me down, you still support it all!
You're not having a good day, are you?
"I doubt the august justices would have room in their calendar chappie. Challenges to your Zionist Zeal is not actually a matter of great public moment as far as I can see."
Just more typical personal attacks.
"This escalating hysteria is completely out of order Mah but if you must keep it up. In doing so
you prove my point really. Such mortified plaintiveness highlights that you're all for democracy and freedom of expression only as long as your strangely hued feathers aren't ruffled."
Being lectured by someone who makes personal attacks on someone like me and you call yourself to be a "promoter" of democracy and freedom of expression? What about the people of Vietnam that are under the dictatorship of the foundation Ho Chi Mihn brought onto them? And for the rest of Southeast Asia? You pretend to be "tolerant" and "wise" but make personal attacks against me and then pretend to be tolerant here?
"And for the record, I would put heaps of money on a relatively negligible incidence of terror in Iraq if The Chickenhawk hadn't "high-nooned" his way into town. Living out his adolescent, cowboy fantasies from the security of the Rose Garden, his "I think, therefore it is!", and satisfying the big biz backers of the real president, Cheney. The same applies to the actions of the IDF (10 - remember) and the Palestinians (1 - remember)."
Hamas along with Hezbollah are prepared to kidnap Israelis and Jews overseas. You are pandering to their propaganda by promoting this sort of lie. You pretend to be for "democracy" and for "freedom of expression" but you have made personal attacks on me every time you get a chance to. You are not for freedom of expression, but only some forms of expression are more equal than others.
"Most of the rest of the world anticipated these consequences in Iraq and eschewed out of hand the utter fantasy of the invader being embraced. Too late to cry foul and weep the absence of courtly southern manners when the palpable reality is pointed out. But blow me down, you still support it all!"
So you feel it's okay for Iraq to fall back into a dictatorship? How about the rest of the region fall the way Vietnam and Southeast Asia fell under various dictatorships which you do not certainly care about the oppressive nature of Ho Chi Mihn or Pol Pot. Do you care about if Muqtada al-Sadr becomes the Iraqi "Ho Chi Mihn" and oppresses the Iraqis quite similar how Saddam did when he was dictator?
Why do you and the rest of the "world view" have such sympathy for a man-Saddam Hussein who has massacred and brutalized his own people (such as getting rid of the Marsh Arabs, gasing of the Kurds, massacre of the Shiite, purging the Sunni from his Baathist Party), supported Hamas, the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), the Black September terror group led by Abu Nidal who murdered Israeli atheletes in Munich. Do you care about George Sadas, Iraqi military defector who stated how Iraqi WMDS were moved to Syria or are you just going to pass on his claims?
Please steve, don't give me this bull about you promoting democracy or freedom of expression or pretending to go after fanatical political views when you have made every attempt to personally attack anyone on this blogsphere you don't like, me included.
Mah, you have completely missed the point, again! So I shall restate it.
When I first came upon this blogsite I knew immediately it was hostile territory.
Hostile even for me as a middle of the road capitalist; one who acknowledges the historical fact and horrors of The Holocaust; one who can't do other than accept the existence of Israel. One who endorses democracy, even if as the lesser of evils (refer Winston Churchill).
OK. People disagree. I wasn't about to nut off about that. Still, there was evident an overall acceptance of democratic concepts. As reflected by Lib Trev, except perhaps as to Venezuela and this "reds under the bed" fascination (eg. George Rosenberg turned essentially capitalist but suspect anyway).
But you Mah, followed closely by Exocet, seem to have respect for nothing apart from your fascists of choice. To hell with democracy or respect for a huge section of humanity when those concepts interfere with your fanatacism.
And you weep and grizzle when I don't just accept that embarrassingly juvenile "I think, therefore it is!" approach.
And then there's your intellectual (for want of a better word)dishonesty. Your advised abuse of everyone who baulks at your extremism, denouncing them as commies, Holocaust deniers etc etc. When patently, like me, they are not.
Actually I'll bet you thank your lucky stars for the very existence of Duke and Irving and other Nazi lunatics. It gives you cover in a way. You can rave about them, accuse others of being the same, and then present much the same as they do, but from the other end of that insanely cruel spectrum.
And expect others not to notice that.
That's why I call you a Holocaust Nazi. The same Nazi ethos is there in both, just a different flight path. Duke and Irving being apologists for Naziism deny the fact. You invoke the fact as justification for a Nazi approach to your "enemies", being the entire world it seems, excluding your fascists of choice and The Chickenhawk. There's some crook wiring there somewhere.
But back to your post above, you troubled man. "Overseas" adventures. What the hell is The Chickenhawk engaged in if it's not an overseas adventure (a pre-emptive one at that), and on a far more cruel and destructive scale than the the sum total of the overseas cruelties of your "betes noire". IDF: 10 - Palestinians: 1 is another reality which you steer well clear of addressing - always.
Not only are you dishonest Mah, you also lack guts - "Mummy, Mummy, Steve's bullying me!"
If you can't hack it go play in some other sandpit, child! Pointless trying to limit the discussion when it gets uncomfortable Mah!
No one ever teach you that what you give you stand a good chance of getting back?
Forgot to add this Mah: When I came upon this blogsite it was immediately apparent that you - yes, you alone - are a fanatic. Unlike all the others with whom I disagreed. With them I merely disagreed. But by you I am utterly appalled.
And I can have no respect - a sentiment which I'm sure is shared by most others.
With you it's all me, me, me and mine, mine, mine. To hell with the rest of the world. Talk about Holcaust Deniers. You're a Humanity Denier. Is your life entirely given over to expressing cruel, inhuman, dark negativity all over the "blogsphere" - your "grand" word - ?
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