Fisking Alan Liefting
Alan Liefting is a prominent Canterbury Green Party member and an activist with the Save Happy Valley Coalition.
I've made the points that no fewer than five anarchist SHVC activists were alleged to be involved in firearms training in the Ureweras and that SHVC is anarchist dominated.
I also accused Alan of being involved in 2002 in a Christchurch based anarchist organisation, the Molten Media Trust.
Alan took me to task.
Here's Alan's comments with replies from Yours Truly.
Trevor, this posting is far worse than you first one on this issue. Come on, be a bit more thorough with your research.
Molten Media Trust in Chch, which is a trust that recycles computers has nothing to do with 176 Molten Media that appears to be an activist group in Wellington. The old info you dragged up from 1996 about Molten Media Trust aiming to be a printing collective no longer applies. There seems to have been a change in direction towards computer recycling and reuse since then.
Once again you think that simply because a person with anarchist leanings is within an organisation that complete organisation is anarchist. So you are saying because Molten Media was used as a contact for an anarchist in 1996 and there is an activist organisation called 176 Molten Media and I did some volunteer work for Molten Media makes me an anarchist? Gosh, with those sort of tenuous connection that would probably make everyone and anarchist. Can I suggest you actually TALK to people before you make a judgement of them?
Incorrect on several counts Alan. Molten Media Trust, Molten Media and 176 Molten Media are all incarnations of the same CHRISTCHURCH based organisation.
The organisation was entirely anarchist in composition at its formation. One well known anarchist, Richard Arachnid (yes that's the name he goes by)was there at the beginning and was still involved a year ago.
Another prominent Molten Media anarchist was the late Gaye Dyson, later an executive assistant to Green MP Metiria Turei(herself a long time anarchist and hardcore SHVC supporter)and a Green Party candiate in the 2002 election.
Molten Media was printing an anarchist 'zine as late as 2005 in collaboration with Wellington's Wildcat Anarchist Collective-which shares an HQ with the Wellington SHVC.
Several Wildcat supporters were among those arrested in the October 15th anti terror raids.
You seek to diminish the anarchist character of Molten Media, you also try to muddy the waters by claiming that I said you were an anarchist. I actually said that you volunteered for an anarchist organisation-a claim I am now repeating.
Think a little more Trevor – with the analysis that you are making you should not be Loudon a computer . . . sorry could not resist it!
Hear you Loudon clear, Alan. Nothing like humour for Liefting the spirits.
Like Jonah says – if you knew us you might like us! You seem to make out that anarchist and Green Party members are BAD people. On the contrary, the way I see it is the Left is altruistic by saying “what is in it for us?” and the Right say “what is in it for me?” The Right wing neo-liberal agenda is what’s stuffing up society and the environment amongst other things. So to spell it out in nice, easy to understand black and white terms for you – Greens = good, ACT = bad.
Never said you were bad people Alan. I consider you good people lead astray by very bad ideas. We're all basically good blokes Alan, just that some of us are arrogant enough to believe that we have a right and a duty to save others from themselves.
That arrogance can lead to great evil and destruction-the path to hell is paved with good intentions etc etc...No doubt Pol Pot and Hitler started out with good intentions, before being consumed by their own mad ideas.
The altruist/versus selfish dichotomy is false in this context.
A true libertarian sees no such conflict.
Socialists and left anarchists tend to see the world as a pie-if you get more, I must get less. Hence their obsession with equality and their hatred of individual achievement and economic growth.
A libertarian sees the world as a realm where unlimited growth is both desirable and necessary for the betterment of all. The libertarian sees the natural environment as a tool and resource that can be immeasurably improved and utilised, limited only by man's intellect and creative drive. The libertarian's world is one of limitless creativity, unbounded benevolence toward one's fellows and a hatred of nothing but the stranglinging hand of the state or the collective.
Accusing me of being an eco-terrorist is probably libellous but I will not waste time dragging you through the courts. It would be interesting though and I would donate the settlement to the Greens or SHVC! Is an eco-terrorist someone who trashes the environment or carries out acts of terrorists in order to protect the environment? Or is it economic terrorism?
I didn't accuse you of being an eco-terrorist Alan, I applied that label to SHVC. The organisation which you support violates property rights and pulls stunts that put lives at risk on a regular basis. SHVC has cost Solid Energy and therefore the New Zealand taxpayer tens of millions of dollars. Therefore I think SHVC qualifies as eco-terrorist under several definitions.
Then there is the irrefutable fact, that you have repeatedly failed to address, that at least five members of your organisation have been charged with illegally using firearms in "quasi military" training camps.
Do you approve of such activity Alan? If not, why have you made no attempt to distance yourself or the Green Party from these people?
You seen to overlook the fact that Greens and anarchists are striving for a more libertarian society. So are you truly a libertarian?
There are, broadly speaking, two main types of libertarians.
There are those, the capitalist, free market, constitutional government libertarians who believe that property rights are absolutely and fundamentally essential to creating and maintaining a free society.
There are the anarchists, or libertarian socialists who believe that property rights are the main impediment to attaining a free society.
While these two groups have some ideas in common, there is a fundamental difference in the central area of property rights.
That is why I oppose organisations like SHVC and the Green Party, Alan. It is not because I hate you (I hate no-one I haven't met and very few that I have), it is because your actions are destructive of my values.
I believe in freedom, based on a foundation of property rights. SHVC and the Green Party have little respect for property rights, so their actions, if unhindered will inevitably destroy the freedoms that I cherish.
We've all read stories of Tommies and Huns, laying down their rifles and playing soccer between the trenches on Christmas Day during the Great War. That's a little bit like I feel about you and your comrades.
Nothing personal, but you've declared war on my way of life and I'm going to fight back.
Doesn't mean there won't be the odd friendly moment or shared idea between battles, but this is a fight for freedom.
I have a responsibility to be be the best soldier I can be and to help win this war.
I've made the points that no fewer than five anarchist SHVC activists were alleged to be involved in firearms training in the Ureweras and that SHVC is anarchist dominated.
I also accused Alan of being involved in 2002 in a Christchurch based anarchist organisation, the Molten Media Trust.
Alan took me to task.
Here's Alan's comments with replies from Yours Truly.
Trevor, this posting is far worse than you first one on this issue. Come on, be a bit more thorough with your research.
Molten Media Trust in Chch, which is a trust that recycles computers has nothing to do with 176 Molten Media that appears to be an activist group in Wellington. The old info you dragged up from 1996 about Molten Media Trust aiming to be a printing collective no longer applies. There seems to have been a change in direction towards computer recycling and reuse since then.
Once again you think that simply because a person with anarchist leanings is within an organisation that complete organisation is anarchist. So you are saying because Molten Media was used as a contact for an anarchist in 1996 and there is an activist organisation called 176 Molten Media and I did some volunteer work for Molten Media makes me an anarchist? Gosh, with those sort of tenuous connection that would probably make everyone and anarchist. Can I suggest you actually TALK to people before you make a judgement of them?
Incorrect on several counts Alan. Molten Media Trust, Molten Media and 176 Molten Media are all incarnations of the same CHRISTCHURCH based organisation.
The organisation was entirely anarchist in composition at its formation. One well known anarchist, Richard Arachnid (yes that's the name he goes by)was there at the beginning and was still involved a year ago.
Another prominent Molten Media anarchist was the late Gaye Dyson, later an executive assistant to Green MP Metiria Turei(herself a long time anarchist and hardcore SHVC supporter)and a Green Party candiate in the 2002 election.
Molten Media was printing an anarchist 'zine as late as 2005 in collaboration with Wellington's Wildcat Anarchist Collective-which shares an HQ with the Wellington SHVC.
Several Wildcat supporters were among those arrested in the October 15th anti terror raids.
You seek to diminish the anarchist character of Molten Media, you also try to muddy the waters by claiming that I said you were an anarchist. I actually said that you volunteered for an anarchist organisation-a claim I am now repeating.
Think a little more Trevor – with the analysis that you are making you should not be Loudon a computer . . . sorry could not resist it!
Hear you Loudon clear, Alan. Nothing like humour for Liefting the spirits.
Like Jonah says – if you knew us you might like us! You seem to make out that anarchist and Green Party members are BAD people. On the contrary, the way I see it is the Left is altruistic by saying “what is in it for us?” and the Right say “what is in it for me?” The Right wing neo-liberal agenda is what’s stuffing up society and the environment amongst other things. So to spell it out in nice, easy to understand black and white terms for you – Greens = good, ACT = bad.
Never said you were bad people Alan. I consider you good people lead astray by very bad ideas. We're all basically good blokes Alan, just that some of us are arrogant enough to believe that we have a right and a duty to save others from themselves.
That arrogance can lead to great evil and destruction-the path to hell is paved with good intentions etc etc...No doubt Pol Pot and Hitler started out with good intentions, before being consumed by their own mad ideas.
The altruist/versus selfish dichotomy is false in this context.
A true libertarian sees no such conflict.
Socialists and left anarchists tend to see the world as a pie-if you get more, I must get less. Hence their obsession with equality and their hatred of individual achievement and economic growth.
A libertarian sees the world as a realm where unlimited growth is both desirable and necessary for the betterment of all. The libertarian sees the natural environment as a tool and resource that can be immeasurably improved and utilised, limited only by man's intellect and creative drive. The libertarian's world is one of limitless creativity, unbounded benevolence toward one's fellows and a hatred of nothing but the stranglinging hand of the state or the collective.
Accusing me of being an eco-terrorist is probably libellous but I will not waste time dragging you through the courts. It would be interesting though and I would donate the settlement to the Greens or SHVC! Is an eco-terrorist someone who trashes the environment or carries out acts of terrorists in order to protect the environment? Or is it economic terrorism?
I didn't accuse you of being an eco-terrorist Alan, I applied that label to SHVC. The organisation which you support violates property rights and pulls stunts that put lives at risk on a regular basis. SHVC has cost Solid Energy and therefore the New Zealand taxpayer tens of millions of dollars. Therefore I think SHVC qualifies as eco-terrorist under several definitions.
Then there is the irrefutable fact, that you have repeatedly failed to address, that at least five members of your organisation have been charged with illegally using firearms in "quasi military" training camps.
Do you approve of such activity Alan? If not, why have you made no attempt to distance yourself or the Green Party from these people?
You seen to overlook the fact that Greens and anarchists are striving for a more libertarian society. So are you truly a libertarian?
There are, broadly speaking, two main types of libertarians.
There are those, the capitalist, free market, constitutional government libertarians who believe that property rights are absolutely and fundamentally essential to creating and maintaining a free society.
There are the anarchists, or libertarian socialists who believe that property rights are the main impediment to attaining a free society.
While these two groups have some ideas in common, there is a fundamental difference in the central area of property rights.
That is why I oppose organisations like SHVC and the Green Party, Alan. It is not because I hate you (I hate no-one I haven't met and very few that I have), it is because your actions are destructive of my values.
I believe in freedom, based on a foundation of property rights. SHVC and the Green Party have little respect for property rights, so their actions, if unhindered will inevitably destroy the freedoms that I cherish.
We've all read stories of Tommies and Huns, laying down their rifles and playing soccer between the trenches on Christmas Day during the Great War. That's a little bit like I feel about you and your comrades.
Nothing personal, but you've declared war on my way of life and I'm going to fight back.
Doesn't mean there won't be the odd friendly moment or shared idea between battles, but this is a fight for freedom.
I have a responsibility to be be the best soldier I can be and to help win this war.
posted by Trevor Loudon at
12/07/2007 07:47:00 PM
8 Comments:
"Then there is the irrefutable fact, that you have repeatedly failed to address, that at least five members of your organisation"
Its hardly irrefutable, because it isn't even a fact, Trev - for one, SHVC does not have members or a membership list, but even if you take your statement to mean "SHVC activists" or similar, its still untrue, because few of the 5 are active in SHVC in any way, and some have NEVER been.
Sorry Asher, but I beg to differ.
I see, so someone directly involved in the campaign is wrong. Care to explain, or too busy tilting at windmills.
"Incorrect on several counts Alan. Molten Media Trust, Molten Media and 176 Molten Media are all incarnations of the same CHRISTCHURCH based organisation."
This is completely and utterly wrong. The correct name for the Wellington based 'collective' which helped produce SNAP! is 176 Multimedia, I know this because I lived at the address where the 176 came from. There were 2-3 people involved and they had no connection whatsoever to Molten Media in Christchurch. Someone misheard the collective name in the copyroom (and I quite liked it so it stayed in the credits for a while), and 2 years later you're trying to construct something out of nothing. Again.
Let's get real here, a collective in Wellington does not need help from a collective in Christchurch to publish an A3 broadsheet once a week.
The organisation was entirely anarchist in composition at its formation. One well known anarchist, Richard Arachnid (yes that's the name he goes by)was there at the beginning and was still involved a year ago.
"Wellington's Wildcat Anarchist Collective-which shares an HQ with the Wellington SHVC."
Can I just say that HQ is a fairly dramatic word for storing some posters at 128 and having meetings there once a week.
"Several Wildcat supporters were among those arrested in the October 15th anti terror raids."
Can you elaborate what you mean by supporters. They're anarchists, some of us are friends, some aren't. Most of Wildcat haven't worked significantly with the people arrested. There's no problem in being supported by the activists arrested, but I don't think they'd describe themselves as 'supporters' of our collective. It seems a bit weird.
"The organisation was entirely anarchist in composition at its formation. One well known anarchist, Richard Arachnid (yes that's the name he goes by)was there at the beginning and was still involved a year ago." - sorry the above is trev's not mine.
once again trev's 'research' is lacking and factually incorrect.
like calling an organisaton 'eco-terrorist' when no acts of terrorism have occurred,
the last was when the rainbow warrior was blown up by the french state agents and they got away with it largely.
and there s no war, just someone who is anti environment and a climate skeptic who thinks he has a 'right' to destroy the environment that all depend on.
so short sighted and selfish, but thats individualism for you.
Funny how all of your plans to 'save' the enviroment involve collectivism, central planning and coercion isn't is anon?.
And your above statement is just so laughably wrong, about Trev and about those of us on the freedom side of the isle.
EXOCET
funny how you have no environment plans.. well rather sad really
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