Hypocrites on the March
Global Peace&Justice Auckland and the Wellington Palestine Group organised rallies yesterday against the Israeli bombing of Gaza.
Where were these people when Hamas was firing rockets from Gaza into Israel?
Were they all out Christmas shopping?
Where were these people when Hamas was firing rockets from Gaza into Israel?
Were they all out Christmas shopping?
posted by Trevor Loudon at
12/31/2008 01:50:00 PM
54 Comments:
It is Global Peace and Justice Auckland, not United For Peace and Justice Auckland.
"Hypocrites on the March"
No I am not a "Hypocrite" Trev and no I am not a member of Global Peace and Justice either. Heard about the protest on National Radio ..OK?!?
Huhana
PS Gee I promised myself I would not come back on this extreme right wing blog...what's wrong with me??
They may well have been Christmas shopping Loudon - while IDF Command planned the slaughter of 350 plus (still counting).
Which is the nobler pastime, mongrel ?
To avenge 4. What ? 4 ?. Yes, bloodthirsty, mindless, sub-human, Holocaust Nazi, Third Reichism.
And Ole-Lump-a-Lard-Loudon still rooting for the bad bastards !
Let's hope Stacy gets that premierssip ring in 2009 eh Steve?
Happy New Year to you and Syd, Huhana.
Cheers
Trevor L
Look in the mirror Steve. You're supporting a group that wishes to implement the second holoacust against the Jews. Hamas is also quite fond of the anti-Semitic propaganda reading material known as the Protocols of Zion.
That's who you support.
The dead babies Mah, just think about the dead babies.
These murderous scum are yours (by proxy at least), not mine.
The old story, the Holocaust Nazis of Israel engage "entitlement" to kill and maim and on whatever scale, whenever.
Hitler.....straight out Hitler.....pure evil and you expect me to say "Oh, never mind.....these murdering animals are Jewish.....so it's all OK."
Hi Steve, the Anti-Semite from Northland. Happy New Year! You are very fortunate to live in NZ. Everyone in NZ fortunate to live there.
Talking about killing babies, when the US and Britain firebombed German cities during WW II literally millions of German babies and children were killed and they were too young to be Nazis. Considering only a few thousand British babies and children were killed by the Germans that was extremely disproportionate. Was that wrong? Perhaps you can clear up the matter. If the British can kill millions of children why can't Israel kill a few dozen? Especially considering that the German Nazis did not want to exterminate the British but hamas wants to exterminate the Jews. Are the Jews wrong to resist Holocaust version 2.0?
Um, it's always wrong to kill babies. Surely that's a no brainer?
The point Fried of Amerika tries so inelegantly to make is the very point I have always made: in the zionist mind the fact of the Holocaust "entitles" Israel to do as it pleases, both qualitatively and quantitatively.
To quote him, he of the celebrated racist rave "Palestinians are depraved losers" - "If the British can kill millions [?] of children why can't Israel kill a few dozen ?"
So the terrorist state of Israel has carte blanche right up to the level of the Holocaust does it.....?
And you can leave out the anti-semite charge. It's hackneyed and facile and has piss all to do with anything.
"So the terrorist state of Israel has carte blanche right up to the level of the Holocaust does it.....?"
Steve said a mouth full, that he supports Israel's destruction, and supports Hamas. Exposed, anti-Israel advocates like you Steve have no dignity.
Would I be this opposed to someone like this from defending themselves if they came under such rocket fire?
The answer is no. But apparently, Jews such as myself have no right to defend myself. That's the bottom line on this sick PR campaign for Hamas is really about.
Apparently, you Steve the anti-Israel advocate would also ignore this report of Palestinian Gazans being accepting to Israeli hospitals.
Go Google search it if you're too lazy to find it yourself.
Wow, they're letting them into hospitals......
I'm so sorry Mah. You've been right all along.
It's now glaringly obvious to me that unleashing Nazi massacre on the Gazans and destroying their hospitals is immediately absolved when Israel uses its hospitals to deal with the always intended results of its Nazi tactics.
Thanks for putting me right you unspeakable, Holocaust Nazi fanatic.
IDF: 10 Palestinians: 1 seems darkly redundant now......
The Israeli government has been cutting off food, fuel and medical supplies to Gaza.
A few Palestinians retaliated by firing rockets into Israel. This only killed one Israeli and a few Palestinians. Although morally questionable, such a response to man made food shortages would be entirely understandable.
In response, the Israeli government launched air attacks killing hundreds. The Israeli government wasn’t satisfied with killing around 200, so they attacked again, killing hundreds more. Such an attack is not only barbaric, but also highly ineffective.
Killing several innocent civilians is bad. Killing hundreds is far worse.
Does any anti-Israel advocate care about the late Yasser Arafat stealing millions of dollars meant for his own people, but sending it to his wife whom's living quite comfortably in France?
That's the sort of leadership you anti-Israel advocates are willing to put in power of a new state of Palestine?
Happy New Year to you Trev and your whanau.
"Hi Steve, the Anti-Semite from Northland. Happy New Year! You are very fortunate to live in NZ. Everyone in NZ fortunate to live there." Yep Reid - we don't want you here either or Mah29001!
Huhana and Hirini
Trev:
Look through the pix on Indymedia AOC and you will find Sahar, Omar Hamed and other leaders of SJP front and centre. In fact, that useless fuckwit Harmeet Sooden was there. Months ago you were alerted to the fact that the above-mentioned Sahar and others openly advocate violence against Jews in their club meetings (funded by tax dollars channeled through Auckland Uni). So instead of whinging about Obama's supposed commie leanings why on earth do you not expose those who the police and SIS should really be interested in but are too PC to bother with?
Steve the Anti-Semite from Northland says that Israel is using Nazi tactics.
Steve you don't have any idea what you are talking about. Your bigotry is palpable. If Israel used Nazi tactics the Palestinians would have been exterminated years ago. Just the opposite is happening as the Palestinian population is rapidly growing.
Israel is not using Russian tactics as the world witnessed in Grozny, Chechniya a few years ago. There Russia shelled the Chechen capital for a week killing 50,000 and leveling the city.
Face it, the critics of Israel have one standard for Jews and another for all other people. The Jews are the chosen people because bigots like you and Huhana have made them so.
It is the screeching of Holocaust Nazi fanatics like Fried of Amerika and Mad Mah which deepens the disrepute in which Israel is already (deservedly) held.
Further in this connection is their crudely expressed sense of "entitlement" for Israel to do exactly as it pleases, however genocidally inspired.
Further still is their bellicose insistence on a moral equivalency as between Israel's wilful massacre of several hundred Palestinians and the deaths at the hands of Hamas of several citizens of the state of Israel.
A state which apartheid-like imprisons and starves on an ongoing basis 1.5 million people in a 500 square kilometre sliver of land at Israel's foot - for months and months on end.
And before in archetypal snivelling fashion you come back wailing Fried, 'fess up to these words from your own mouth - "Palestinians are depraved losers....."
Then tell me that you the Holocaust Nazi does not maintain that Palestinians are less human, if human at all, than Jews.
It is extremely paradoxical that those who invoke the fact of Hitler's Holocaust should rationalise Israel's Hitlerism against the Palestinians.
Finally Fried I would have thought that if it is so central that Jews are the "Chosen People", that "fact" would be underpinned by something rather more substantial than my personal distress over the hundreds and hundreds and the several who have died in the last week.
I wish the rain would stop so I can go play with the toys santa left.
Dirk
"It is extremely paradoxical that those who invoke the fact of Hitler's Holocaust should rationalise Israel's Hitlerism against the Palestinians."
Says the anti-Semite who endorses Hamas that supporters the forgery of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
This is the "moderate" terrorist which anti-Israel advocates also support on a comment made by Mahmoud Abbas in an essay:
"It seems that the interest of the Zionist movement, however, is to inflate this figure [of Holocaust deaths] so that their gains will be greater. This led them to emphasize this figure [six million] in order to gain the solidarity of international public opinion with Zionism. Many scholars have debated the figure of six million and reached stunning conclusions—fixing the number of Jewish victims at only a few hundred thousand."
Along with this comment:
"The Zionist movement led a broad campaign of incitement against the Jews living under Nazi rule to arouse the government's hatred of them, to fuel vengeance against them and to expand the mass extermination."
Anti-Israel advocates also get the backing of al-Qaeda terrorists, whom have now going to be prepared to launch world-wide attacks on Jewish targets with the aid of "moderate" Fatah and Hamas. This is what anti-Israel advocates support, the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel and in its place, the failed state of Palestine being led by the corrupt leaders of Fatah and Hamas.
More additional comments from "moderate" Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas which the anti-Israel advocates support:
"The little jihad is over, and now we have the bigger jihad - the bigger battle is achieving security and economic growth"
"From here [the Gaza withdrawal], our people begin the march towards establishing an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital"
"The armed struggle necessitates certain conditions and opportunities that do not exist for us in Palestine. We cannot equate what is happening in Palestine with what is going on Lebanon or Algeria. Therefore, military activities under these circumstances and means are ineffective. For this reason, we stated that we have no choice but to stop it [i.e. military activities] for a year, which is not a submission from our point of view. As long as the circumstances are not equivalent."
"There is absolutely no substitution for dialogue."
Gotta give it to you Mah Baby.....you're a dab-hand at the cut and paste.
Besides that, do you actually expect unconditional surrender.....which if not forthcoming then they're mongrel terrorists who want to fuck-up "the peace".
Israel is the most noted and respectable terrorist in the world Mah Mah. Too bad that you view Palestinians as less than human.
If you didn't you'd understand. But of course this is the first mark of the screeching Holocaust Nazi - no human empathy.
Everything is black and white. The world dare not express opposition to Israel's Nazism.
They're anti-semites if they do. Grow up you sad old fulla.
Ka Kite Mah Mah.
In classic Mah Mah style I will send a further message as a sort of a postscript: Israel most decidedly IS an apartheid state, indeed the major apartheid state in the world today. Verwoed and Vorster to new heights !
Don't whine about it maddo, accept the indisputable fact of it and become a human being. Stop being a conceited, bitching, "The world must lie down for us Jews or they're terrorists and bastards", zionist.
Nobody enjoys seeing the killings in gaza Steve, but it is hard to see what else Israel is supposed to do.
If someone was firing rockets into my backyard, I'd be wanting it stopped ASAP.
The real issue here is the long term survival of Israel and its 7 million citizens.
IMHO, Israel has no choice but to fight and fight hard.
If Israel allows its hostile neighbours to gain the upper hand militarily, IMHO we will see a new Holocaust.
What's your better solutions Steve and Huhana?
I'm sincerely interested.
Plain and simple - an end to Jewish fanatics taking Palestinian land - enough already of the Nazi measures when the dispossessed protest - no more Jewish-centric apartheid - some human empathy.
Justice the seed, peace the flower.
However you look at it there ain't no justice in 450 lives (still counting) for 4 lives. Unless you're a Holocaust Nazi which means you got a "credit" for at least 6 million.
Bloody spooky !
I love your "sincerity" Loudon, your "considered gentleman" pose, whereas in reality you're as Twistedly Mad and Basically Evil as Mad Mah. Anyway.....you do it well. Not a bad cover.
You wanted a solution. Very simple. No more Jewish fanatic land grab.....no more starving 1.5 million.....no more Jewish-centric apartheid.....no more IDF: 450 Palestinians: 4.....I could go on.
Justice the seed, peace the flower. Acknowledgments to a very insightful mind.
However you look at it, there ain't no justice in 450:4.
And you need to be picked up on this Loudon....."rockets into my backyard".
That's spin bullshit. 95% of those (unguided) rockets go into parched field. So the crap I read from some thick bint in the Herald today about the "targeting" of kindergartens simply cannot be true. And the death toll (4) proves it.
So enough of your pathetic closet Holocaust Nazi attempts to falsify an equivalency. There is no equivalency.
There is Nazism which you support. What a fine "considered gentleman" you are.
Sure you're not direct to a crusty, smelly old bastard called Balfour, lurching drunkenly through some gentlemans' club/brothel in The Strand of 1919, promising away what wasn't his to promise away ?
Israel is the most efficient and most deadly terrorist state in the world.
But then, for your moral and mental frailty you aways support the bad bastards, don't you Loudon ?
"The world dare not express opposition to Israel's Nazism."
I just gave an example of neo-Nazis supporting Hamas dolt. One must be quite stupid to not notice the example I just gave of the Canadian Nationalist Party, a neo-Nazi group affiliated with American neo-Nazi circles has gone to support Hamas.
The fact you refer Israel's actions as "Nazism" exposes that you ARE an anti-Semite. That you wouldn't mind agreeing to a cause which neo-Nazis agree to.
"What's your better solutions Steve and Huhana?"
Easy answer, they have no answer but the most violent one which includes Israel ceasing to exist.
Real message of anti-Israel advocates, instead of bringing a message of accepting Israel's right to exist, disarming radical terrorist groups and having neighbors of Israel accept its right to exist with Israel even disarming its nuclear program with other neighbors doing the same.
It's nothing to do about peace, rather it's "Death to Israel." as the ultimate real message.
You're not of this planet Mah Mah.
You prove it when you define "peaceful proposals" as nothing less than unconditional surrender to the apartheid enforcing Holocaust Nazis of Israel.
Perhaps we should know you as Mad Mah The Martian With The Holocaust Halo.
"You prove it when you define "peaceful proposals" as nothing less than unconditional surrender to the apartheid enforcing Holocaust Nazis of Israel."
How the hell is telling Hamas to stop its barrage of rockets into Israeli homes bad? Why not be honest on where you stand and admit you wish to see a second holocaust against the Jews living in Israel?
Giving reasonable proposals for Palestinians and Israelis to rightfully co-exist peacefully without terrorist groups ruling the Palestinians is a "bad thing" according to you Steve.
You support the end of Israel, and self-destruction of the very people you are claiming to root for. They are being used just as the Sudeten Germans were used against the Czech Republic.
"Barrage of rockets....."
Oh yes, that "barrage" resulting in 4 deaths.
"Just retaliation".....?
Oh yes, resulting, in one week, in 100 times the number of deaths and still counting.
Hitler, Hitler, Hitler !
How dare you invoke the Holocaust you Nazi !
Mah you are wasting your time trying to speak rationally to Steve the Anti-Semite from Northland. He is obviously enraged that his beloved Hamas is being decimated by the IDF. He actually believed their hyperbole about destroying Israel and his dreams have been shattered once again. Now he is channeling his rage by growing an ulcer and a tumor and venting on New Zeal.
Almost unnoticed because of the fighting is Hamas two weeks ago legalized crucifixion for those found guilty of insulting Islam. Like I have been saying the Palestinians are depraved.
Sorry Steve-but you clearly have no answers that do not involve Israel inviting destruction upon itself.
Reid and MAH are right.
Either Israel destroys its enemies and has some chance of survival, or she capitulates and commits national suicide.
I want Israel to survive, I honestly don't think you do.
"I want Israel to survive, I honestly don't think you do."
Problem is stranglehold military politics has never worked anywhere in the world in the known history of keeping history. All it does is lead to more and more conflict.
Keeping Gazans in utter misery by cutting them off from the world, strangling their food supply, hospital supplies, controlling their media, shelling them with artillery shells, building a wall around them basically putting them into a prison state treating every Gazan as a criminal, is the root of the misery the people of Gaza live in.
The idea Israel thought of, using this state sized prison tactic in strangling Hamas from building infrastructure in Gaza failed as Hamas have still been able to accomplish this even under those circumstances, so the only people paying for this stranglehold are the average Gazans.
Under the guise of preventing rockets terrorising Israel, they have invaded Gaza again to smash Hamas infrastructure and weaken its ability to develop Gaza into an independant state.
You watch closely Mr Loudon, with all the bluster and bullshit coming from the Israeli foreign minister, Israels military will merely go in, shoot about 500 militants dead, blow up as many of the main buildings of infrastructure like hospitals, telecomunications, tv stations and some aid stations, and then pull out.
They are not doing this invasion to destroy their enemy as you put it, because that would mean raizing Gaza to ashes, since the entire place is their enemy not just Hamas (for every militant killed, on average 40 members of the militants family become sworn enemies of Israel due to the Clan structure in Gaza).
Israels only chance of survival there is to make a peace treaty with both Hamas and Fatah, that does not involve stranglehold politics, and involves them obeying the 100 or so UN resolutions covering such things as illegal occupation through to illegal detainment and deportation of Palestinians in direct contravention of the 4th Geneva Convention.
"Under the guise of preventing rockets terrorising Israel, they have invaded Gaza again to smash Hamas infrastructure and weaken its ability to develop Gaza into an independant state."
You mean to say that Hamas isn't an organization bent on Israel's destruction? How about the part of Hamas' charter where it calls for Israel's destruction by using Islam to obliterate it? Would it not be more suitable to have these brand of phrases be taken out by groups such as Hamas or even Fatah and other groups in order to have any hint of real dialogue with Israel?
"You mean to say that Hamas isn't an organization bent on Israel's destruction?"
Yep that is their underlying mission statement.
"How about the part of Hamas' charter where it calls for Israel's destruction by using Islam to obliterate it?"
Hamas exists because of the misery that Gazans live in. Groups like that cannot exist unless a dystopia exists. Much like the west bank, if you remove the misery, the people will lose interest in fundamentalist groups like Hamas.
Israels greatest fear is not the rockets, its Hamas gaining a foothold as Hizbollah has in Lebanon. The foothold is of course, infrastructure, roads, construction, commerce, schools, hospitals and the like - which is as I said, their intended targets.
Because Hamas has been able to achieve this even in those conditions, this has put Israel in a position now where they will have to treat to Hamas because with Israels help (and Hamas could not have done this without the pedantic reactionary military responses of Israel) Hamas has been able accomplish its prominence.
The problem is that Israel is not ready to face this stark reality, and has embarked on a campaign that was probably 4 years too late for them to ever achieve what they are wanting to achieve now.
Like Fatah which used to be seen as a terrorist group, it will take a bit of effort for Hamas to be restructured to become an acceptable political body to be negotiated with.
However I do not think the Israeli Government has the skills to undertake such a transformation, perhaps others in the area with the necessary skills could be instrumental in transforming Hamas to that point.
They had made so much ground in the West Bank, now it is almost all undone and back to square one.
Meanwhile as every bomb strikes, every artillery shell finds its indiscriminant target, and every bullet whistles across Gaza, Gazans become more and more aligned to Hamas, and the chances of peace in the next 10 years are pretty much impossible.
Next Palestinian elections will see a landslide victory to Hamas because of this weeks actions.
Hear hear Jerry Cant ! "Stranglehold politics" says it all.
You know, I don't think Zionist Israel ever stopped being at war. Indeed there seems to be a psychiatric hangover in the present day zionist.
And of course Mah will puff his chest up and issue forth with "See, the Holocaust.....Shut it Steve !"
Well Mah, when the tormented victim turns into the tormenting tyrant there can be no peace.....ever.
I guess you can always stamp your foot and retort "Israel is not the tyrant.....Shut it, shut it !"
Well OK Mah, but IDF 450 Palestinians 4 is pretty persuasive.
You want unconditial surrender. You won't get it so you'll continue to act.....from time to time as deemed necessary by you (scary).....as at present.
Sounds pretty much like a tyrant/tormentor to me Mah.
"Meanwhile as every bomb strikes, every artillery shell finds its indiscriminant target, and every bullet whistles across Gaza, Gazans become more and more aligned to Hamas, and the chances of peace in the next 10 years are pretty much impossible."
Wrong. Last time I heard, Hamas was the target of Israeli military airstrikes. Do you care that you are recycling Hamas propaganda? Or that anti-Israel advocates like yourselves would prefer to see Israel's destruction instead of peaceful alternatives?
Gazan Palestinians are themselves victims of Hamas, to which the "evil" state of Israel has been accepting Gazan Palestinians into hospitals, while the surrounding Arab governments have done nothing for any Palestinian refugees. Do you ever mention something like that?
"You know, I don't think Zionist Israel ever stopped being at war. Indeed there seems to be a psychiatric hangover in the present day zionist."
Apprently, any hint of promoting peaceful change toward the charters of Hamas or Fatah, means "surrender" toward you along with ending their barrage of rocket attacks by their armed factions.
"Wrong. Last time I heard, Hamas was the target of Israeli military airstrikes."
Its like you are reading something someone else wrote then replying to what I wrote. Let me walk you through it again. 'Meanwhile as every bomb strikes' - bombs are striking Gaza are they not? 'every artillery shell finds its indiscriminant target' - artillery is a field weapon is it not, designed for war away from cities as it is not a 'guided' bomb is it not? 'and every bullet whistles across Gaza' - are there not bullets whistling across Gaza?
I am speaking to you from the perspective of how the Gazans see the invasion on themselves, they hear the bomb explosions, they are hit by the residual blasts of artillery and they hear the whistle of 100s of thousands of rounds whistling around them.
"Do you care that you are recycling Hamas propaganda? Or that anti-Israel advocates like yourselves would prefer to see Israel's destruction instead of peaceful alternatives?"
This is just laziness your part Mah29001. You really need to drop this line of approach with me as I find it to be weak and lacking in intelligence. Whether you want to admit it or not, Hamas has gained popular support in Gaza so simply sitting around saying 'death to the terrorist Hamas' is counter-productive.
Your problem is you cannot see the reality that is in front of you. Hamas is now more than some extremist terrorist political group, since it now has popular support in Gaza, all the military factions and armed clans are now eseentially Hamas. Which pretty much makes all of Gaza...Hamas, much the same as what happened in southern Lebanon with Hizbollah.
This is the reality now. Face it. It doesn't make you a terrorist sympathiser to be able to see what is the reality on the ground.
If Israel wants peace with Hamas, and wants the rocketing to stop and any other type of incursion or terrorist attack onto the Israeli civilian population then it has two options.
Option 1: Pull out of Gaza and allow a negotiation team made up of a delegation from France, Fatah and one other Arab state, perhaps Qatar, to sit down with Hamas leadership and work out a peace agreement that involves the disarming of civilian populations in return for large financial and economic rewards to the people of Gaza.
This has worked in Iraq and it will also work in Afghanistan, its called chequebook peace. Actually do the very opposite, help them establish an autonymous state, and in doing so, help shape the relationship with Israel that involves a process of dialog between both party's even if that means a permanent 3rd party as intermediary. Unfortunately the US has become so partisan they can no longer fulfil that role.
Option 2: Raize Gaza to the ground. Gaza is Hamas now, and the more you prod it and poke it as Israel is doing now the more 'Hamas' Gazans become.
The option Israel has taken is neither of the two, has not and will not prevent more terrifying rockets from being fired into Israel, and is just inflaming the situation.
In that case they would have done better to just purchase one of those anti rocket shields from the US or Russia and place them along the Israel Gaza wall. It wouldnt take the rocketeers long to figure out their efforts are now useless and nullified.
"If Israel wants peace with Hamas, and wants the rocketing to stop and any other type of incursion or terrorist attack onto the Israeli civilian population then it has two options."
What the hell? How about Hamas having parts of its charter openly calling for the destruction of Israel? Would you first have some reforms within Hamas in changing its charter so it would then disarm its own factions? How about the part of Hamas charter where it states to use Islam to obliterate Israel?
Do you clearly ignore that Hamas has that part of the charter that should be removed if Israel wishes to have dialogue with the group in question? How about also a report of there being a member of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) and its armed wing National Resistance Brigades being caught?
The DFLP is a member of the PLO which Israel is negociating peace. Yet its members were caught in Gaza, helping Hamas firing rockets. The clear answer form you, is that you are not interested in seeing Israel defending itself. Even from groups that say they are "moderate".
Repost:
I do not see people like you going into other conflicts and demand those governments to adopt peaceful alternatives, without preconditions to change the tones of the radical groups.
Such as in the case of Sri Lanka against the Tamil Tigers whom have just taken control over their headquarters. The Sri Lankan government, like the Israeli government faces daily brand of terror from the Tamil Tigers.
I do not see protests for the Tamil Tigers, as much as I do to prevent the Israeli military into going against Hamas and other radical groups. Henceforth, double standard.
One for Israelis, and the other for Sri Lankans. Where are your comments on Russian government facing Chechen terrorists? Or China facing Muslim extremists in Western China? Yet you hold a different standard for Israel?
Additional comments:
How about Mexico against the Zapatista movement which originally violently aimed to overthrow the Mexican government and other similar Mexican-based groups who have similar desires? Where are all your protests on that? Why is it that the Israelis get whipped more by the world for trying to defend themselves, yet all other nations do not?
You're talking Jewish exceptionalism Mah, the pure basis of which is zionist Holocaust Nazism. You are Hitler.
May you get the agony and annihilation you have rained down on Palestinians.
There's nothing more to be said really. A curse on you, despicable Nazi.
"A curse on you, despicable Nazi."
Taking a page, literally from the propaganda play book of terrorist groups such as the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) which just recently fired rockets into an Israeli city. You call me a "Nazi" but don't mind siding with Nazi-like terrorists?
"What the hell? How about Hamas having parts of its charter openly calling for the destruction of Israel? Would you first have some reforms within Hamas in changing its charter so it would then disarm its own factions? How about the part of Hamas charter where it states to use Islam to obliterate Israel?"
I would have thought by now that you would have been able to discern that this was a given. I do not think that Hamas will have a choice to change its charter if the people will it. The way to win Gaza is through Gazans, just as it is the way to lose Gaza.
"Do you clearly ignore that Hamas has that part of the charter that should be removed if Israel wishes to have dialogue with the group in question?"
Of course its there Ma29001, geez are you a parrot or what??? You are too fixated on a charter that in the end means nothing. Any negotiation with Hamas by the group I suggested which I would also like to add Egypt into now too, would have to have the recognition of the state of Israel entrenched into any treaty - I would have thought that would not have to be reiterated, its a given, get it!
The biggest problem with that plan is not the recognition of the state of Israel as you keep on about, but the even larger issue, the one that has been the point of contention since the beginning of the state of Israel and that is the borders of Israel which there probably will never be a unanimous agreement on.
"The clear answer form you, is that you are not interested in seeing Israel defending itself. Even from groups that say they are "moderate"."
Again you are being lazy in your arguments and going for the 'youre either with us or with the terrorists' way out of this debate.
The clear answer from me is that I do not agree with terrorist action by Hamas firing their rockets into civilian areas or any areas in fact into Israel. To add to that, I also do not believe that this invasion will stop those rockets being fired or some other technique to achieve the same goals but in fact make things worse.
So returning back to what will work...focus Mah, ok? Were interested in reality and what will work, not what we want to work that in reality has no chance of working. The way to settle this is through the Gazan people and through the people of the West Bank (and I dont mean through silly leaflet drops). History shows that once people move beyond poverty and beyond fear of war and regain hope, that their ears become less and less tuned into the voices of the extremists.
The delegation I spoke of earlier needs to get an immediate ceasefire from Hamas, withdrawal of Israeli troops and the insertion of some sort of peace keeper group, French forces if the UN is unwilling to commit its peace keepers. The delegation then has a small window to meet with every clan leader, every cleric and tribal leader in the Gaza strip to work out a peace deal.
Working alone with Hamas is a losing battle because they are too extremist, willing to carry out acts of terror and rigid in their demands, but they cannot nevertheless be ignored. Basically using the same tactics the US and British generals did in Iraq, cut deals with every clan leader for their peace and agreement to disarm even if it means bringing in pallet loads of US$ for each leader, as the US generals did in Iraq.
Once that peace deal is cut, it is also on the provisory that peace keeping troops will come in and rebuild Gaza setting up a system where they will feel safe from outside attacks while maintaining their own sovereignty or autonomy, as is the case in Iraq. Then open lines of commerce and trade, rather than aid which keeps them dependant, which is another thing they did in Iraq.
Then comes the training of police forces by the peace keepers. The point of this is to train people with policing systems that meet western values, which tend to be less partisan than the other. Then those countries in the delegation need to agree that Gaza is an independent state, and the Gaza Government which needs to comprise of a larger representative group other than Hamas, needs to recognise the state of Israel, and Israel in return, needs to recognise the state of Gaza.
Food, shelter, education and health Mah29001, whoever controls those controls the people. At the moment its Hamas, much like Hizbollah in south Lebanon. Those need to come under the control of a non-partisan series of institutions rather than Hamas.
Finally after all that is accomplished, a peace treaty needs to be signed between Gaza, Israel and a 3rd intermediary country, agreeing to a set of principles that can allow both states to exist side by side, and share Jerusalem.
Hearts and minds of the people Mah21009.
"History shows that once people move beyond poverty and beyond fear of war and regain hope, that their ears become less and less tuned into the voices of the extremists."
Er, wasn't Fatah responsible for giving aid to Palestinians? Yet all the late Yasser Arafat did was give the aid to his wife Suha Arafat who lives quite comfortable in France with a wealthy life style. Aside from that, reports state she still sends money to terrorist groups operating in Gaza, which also cooperate with Hamas and have been caught on the battlefield helping Hamas.
You're telling me that Israel is to blame, when you have leaders such as these that would be in power of a new state of Palestine? It's going to end up like Zimbabwe, North Korea and other failed states. Why not have a civil government without the rule of armed terrorist groups, or radical groups that do not recognize Israel to recognize Israel?
"Er, wasn't Fatah responsible for giving aid to Palestinians?"
I wasnt referring to aid, I was talking about economic poverty. Giving aid does not alleviate that, it helps maintain poverty while giving short term relief to those that are starving.
"You're telling me that Israel is to blame, when you have leaders such as these that would be in power of a new state of Palestine? It's going to end up like Zimbabwe, North Korea and other failed states."
Na you're saying that, not me Mah.
"Why not have a civil government without the rule of armed terrorist groups, or radical groups that do not recognize Israel to recognize Israel?"
That is a process, as I already stated, that must come via the people of Gaza as they are the only ones that can have that level of say in the power and reach of Hamas.
I don't see you as a nazi mah29001, i just think you need to stay focussed on the big picture and what is reality now, and what can be achieved if mechanisms can be put in place as in the examples I gave that can bring about stability and peace while minimising groups like Hamas until they become irrelevant to the peoples of Gaza.
Hey Trevor,
Great Job! Its a shame you always have to fight with the blind people here who take up precious space in your blog.
Son of Hamas Leader Gives Glimpse Into Terror Organization
Saturday , January 03, 2009
As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and other world leaders try to broker a cease-fire agreement between Israel and Hamas, one former member of the militant Islamic organization said there will never be lasting peace between the two groups.
"There is no chance. Is there any chance for fire to co-exist with the water?" said Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of one of the group's founding members.
Yousef added: "It's not about Israel, it's not about Hamas: it's about both ideologies."
Yousef, son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, one of the most influential leaders of the militant group, said the organization betrays the Palestinian cause and tortures its own members.
Hamas, formed in the late 1980's as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the radical Muslim Brotherhood, is considered a terror organization by the U.S. government. Hamas seized power in the Gaza strip in 2007 in a violent coup against the more moderate Palestinian Authority led by Mahmoud Abbas.
Yousef said he was indoctrinated at an early age to use violence to challenge Israeli control in the region. As a teenager he moved up within the organization and became the leader of the radical Islamic Youth Movement that fought Israeli tanks and troops in the streets, celebrated suicide bombings and recruited young men to the cause.
Yousef, 30, said he realized the true nature of Hamas and radical Islam during a stint in an Israeli prison. He renounced his Muslim faith, left his family behind in Ramallah and converted to Christianity.
"Islam is not the word of God," said Yousef. "If you want to be offended it's your problem. But you know something? Go study. Think for a second that I might be right. So wake up, look at your path, see where you're going. Are you really going to heaven with 72 virgins after you kill yourself and kill another 20 people?"
Yousef has sought asylum in the United States and now attends an evangelical Christian church in San Diego, Calif.
"The Hamas leadership, including my father, they're responsible; they're responsible for all the violence that happened from the organization. I know they describe it as reaction to Israeli aggression, but still, they are part of it and they had to make decisions in those operations against Israel (for) which there was the killing of many civilians."
Yousef talks more about his extraordinary story of faith, courage, violence and betrayal in a FOX News documentary, "Escape From Hamas," hosted by Bill Hemmer.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475226,00.html
Update and Commentary
News Media Shows Slanted Facts
Rather Than Truth About Gaza War -
Bill Wilson
By Bill Wilson, KIN Senior Analyst
WASH—Jan 2—KIN-- The Palestinian terrorists in Gaza are expert at manipulating the news media to their point of view. Already, the top media outlets have filled television screens with human interest stories of Palestinian women and children being blown to bits by the overpowering and relentless Israeli Defense Forces. Story after story appears with frantic Palestinian women crying out that their lives are disrupted by these terrible bombing raids, that there is no food to feed their families, that their husbands are missing. And while they are talking, there is chaos in the background of bombed out buildings and B-roll of children being wheeled into hospitals that are supposed to be overcrowded due to Israeli attacks.
The story that is not told is far more compelling, but you won’t hear it on CNN or the other major news outlets because they are providing a biased point of view. First, I know of few nations at war who actually provide medical aid and supplies to the enemy they are trying to destroy. Nobody with a mustard seed of God’s goodness in them wants to create, maintain or revel in human suffering. The Israelis are not only opening the war zone to convoys of medical supplies, they are opening their own hospitals to Palestinians in need. Interesting, however, that a communication from the Israeli Embassy indicated that many of the Palestinian children treated in Israeli hospitals were victims of Palestinian fired missiles.
Another example of exactly what is going on is found in the Israeli assassination of senior Hamas terror operative Nizir Rian, who organized suicide bombings against Israelis. The Israeli Embassy issued this statement: “The multiple secondary explosions that resulted from the attack confirm that Rian's house functioned as a weapons storage facility. The house also served as a communications center, beneath which a clandestine escape tunnel for Hamas terrorists was located. Rian was in the house at the time of the attack, which was carried out successfully based upon IDF and ISA intelligence. As with all IAF activity, every possible effort was made to avoid collateral civilian harm.”
While the news media is clamoring about how Israel is targeting civilians, the story of why some homes are targeted is totally missed. Hamas and the Palestinians house their weapons, command centers and leaders in civilian communities for two reasons: one is to cause pause when attacking because women and children will be harmed; and the other is to use women and children as shields against such attacks. The mainstream news media only tells part of the story from a slanted perspective. Jesus said in Matthew 24:4, “Take heed that no man deceive you.” He also said in John 8:32, “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Seek the truth, not just the facts—the truth is never biased.
http://www.watch.org:80/showprint.php3?idx=111956&mcat=1&rtn=/index.html
You need to hark back to the words of Ben-Gurion which were to this effect:
"The Palestinians were not repsonsible for the Holocaust. Of course they're going to hate us for taking their land......"
That's the substance of it. Quoting unsubstantiated basically unknown sources from your trawling through the web is hardly powerful or persuasive.
And it's side-splittingly hilarious were it not so tragic to hear apartheid practitioners and supporters allege bias for Palestinians in the westen media.
It is simply not a reality, falling as it does squarely within the notion "tell a lie long enough......"
As unreal as the bulk of the western medias' insistence that there is an equivalency between the actions of Hamas with some few unguided rockets and Israel's carnage.
Why don't the media tell the people squarely that while Hamas respected the cease-fire for months on end Israel maintained its blockade of Gaza months on end ? A clear and ongoing act of war.
No, can't be. Anyway the Palestinians are sub-human relatively so who cares......
Justice the seed, peace the flower.
You really are on shaky ground when you quote Fox News as anything other than a bugle for crazed, cruel zionism.
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